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Appeals: Inconsistencies

Discussion in 'Server Discussion' started by gpsqueixo, Mar 1, 2021.

  1. Hello,

    I am a member of the Mineplex community who has been banned for stat boosting. It is something I do not pride myself upon and the brunt of the punishment is behind me. I regret my actions and acted uninformed of the rules. However, I did not feel as if my punishment was truly worth its length (a 30 day ban for boosting 10 wins; the equivalent of around 1,000 EXP). So I did as any banned player would, and appealed.

    This proved to be an eye-opening experience.

    I had never been banned before. I had never appealed. After some bureaucratic roadblocks, my appeal was escalated (after 1 whole week) and denied (after another week). This was extremely frustrating to me. I've seen other players get unbanned for hacking after a few days, so why haven't I been?, I thought. Especially since the offense I committed only harmed the server for around 10 minutes, while closeters/hackers can potentially ruin the game for months before being caught. So, I did as any frustrated player would, and messaged the Admins.

    Firstly, I spoke to the appeals Admin. On Discord, I was told to message them on the forums, which took another 2 or 3 days. I was finally told that the decision to never unban a player during their first stat boosting offense was given by the Rules Committee. This also didn't make sense do me, as a first-time offender is more likely to be regretful and not reoffend (a second stat boosting offense results in a permanent ban). So I did what anyone would do, and messaged the Rules Committee Admin.

    I was coldly told, in an indifferent tone, that no leniency is taken into consideration. Punishment would lead to obedience. Once again I asked regarding hacking punishments: there's leniency there -- why shouldn't there be leniency here? Again, coldly: the Rules Committee doesn't deal with hacking.

    Defeated, I reached the end. Over 3 weeks later, I am still banned. I fully accept my punishment, but I do not understand why every detail is so fragmented and takes so much time to process. Why do I have to run through 3 or 4 different people/teams to make sense of my punishment? Why isn't there a centralized appeals team that deals with all types of appeals (QA deals with hacking, RC deals with stat boosting, Regular Appeals deals with chat, etc.)? Why do forums staff take over 2 days to answer forum messages? Why is everything so inconsistent?

    I know it's whiny, I know nothing will be done. But I have to let it out here, because there's no other place left.
     
    Posted Mar 1, 2021,
    Last edited Mar 1, 2021
    Brvken, cernsie, andr3w and 7 others like this.
  2. Appeals are dealt with by the FM (Forum Management) team, the only times that QA and RC deal with offenses is for offenses that require more evidence (ex. Stat boosting, Autoclicker, Anti-Cheat Bans, Reach etc.), this is due to these teams specializing in 1 or more aspects of the punishment and/or making the punishment more valid. Stat boosting is hard to punish for, and is one of the more serious punishments you can receive. You get punished for about as long as a hacking offense, and it’s likely you’ll have a stat wipe. It’s not hard to see why you were not given any leniency, you repeatedly teamed with a player that was playing illegitimately for your own personal benefit, instead of getting better like most players. If you truly understand why you were banned and the reasoning for it you should understand why your punishment was given, especially considering that you essentially cheated the same as the player who was cheating to boost you. Based on this post, I can make a reasonable guess that you’re tired of being banned and have yet to fully accept your punishment, considering you talk about how it should be removed because you learned your lesson, but complain about the length of the punishment. Finally, Admins will reply when they can, they’re constantly busy with other things and not always going to respond quickly.
     
    Posted Mar 1, 2021
  3. Hi there, appeals team member here.
    There are a lot of internal processes that go on during appeal processing. In regards to the wait-time, unfortunately in many cases it’s just something we can’t control. Certain appeals have to get escalated, the members that review stat boosting ban appeals have many other duties and outside lives of course, unfortunately those things just take time. Compared to someone banned for a normal hacking offense who won’t end up going through such an extensive review by multiple people. It isn’t reasonable to expect every appeal to get handled instantly, especially when it has to be forwarded to multiple teams or people for reviewal

    It’s your opinion of course, but I’d argue that stat boosting in many cases is worse than a blatant hacker. A person hacking is often there to just annoy players, and obviously while that isn’t tolerated, stat boosting serves to game our level system in order to boost rewards. While you’re not directly hurting anyone, it does undermine the hard work legitimate players put in.

    While a centralized appeals team would be wonderful, it isn’t possible to implement. Mainly due to the fact the people handling various types of appeals are not qualified to handle other appeals. Stat boosting is a RC ban, so it wouldn’t make sense for a normal appeals team member to handle punishments directly issued by RC.

    I do agree someone who is fairly banned for hacking shouldn’t just be instantly unbanned. We did just implement a change requiring all users who are punished (justified) for over 30 days to wait at least 7 days before appealing their ban or mute.
     
    Posted Mar 1, 2021
    rilau, BREEZLET, WowCaleb and 7 others like this.
  4. Hey, I've myself never been punished on Mineplex, but from your perspective, it probably isn't fun to be banned. But, you did Stat Boost, and even if you only did it for like 10 minutes, it is a severity 4 offense, so they are high offenses that can get you banned for 30 days. But to be fair, you admitting that you were stat boosting shows that you knew exactly what you were doing and that you were fully aware that you'd be banned for this. I would recommend to be careful next time on doing something especially if you knew what you were doing.

    Mineplex also doesn't have much forum management, and they get many appeals everyday. They have a whole process to do before approving or denying appeals. Since they are staff, they also get a lot of conversations from forums and/or Discord a lot. So, replying to everyone at a fast rate is something they may have to deal with. But, you do have a week left before you get unbanned, so hopefully nothing bad happens next time.
     
    Posted Mar 1, 2021
  5. I can relate to you. Almost a month ago, I got banned for modified KB when the reality is I never used hacks in the first place. Like everyone who gets falsely banned, I went ahead and appealed. Before I did, I posted a footage of what happened leading to my ban. The ban was escalated for 6 days before they denied my appeal. Because of this, I was forced to wait out the ban. Luckily, I have one week left of the ban. What I learned from this is to record the past 10 mins when something happens that feels off so I do not get falsely banned again. I main Bedrock btw
     
    Posted Mar 1, 2021
    Jet Starglaze likes this.
  6. After reading your post, I don't really see any inconsistency here. Sounds like you were told the same thing by Wanderer as you were by Toki, which is the opposite of inconsistency. Every person banned for Stat Boosting is dealt with similarly, which is also the opposite of inconsistency. Hackers are not dealt with similarly because it's a completely different type of offense. You may have seen other players get unbanned for hacking because that is based on internal decisions and we don't require an escalation to Rules Committee for those kinds of things. Honestly, I don't believe that players banned for Stat Boosting should have any sort of precedence over hackers, and vice versa. It's not fair to players that are affected by either type of rule breaker. Just because you were stat boosting for 10 minutes doesn't make it more okay than somebody who was stat boosting for a week. Both have similar effects and are plainly unfair and against the rules.

    I assume there is no leniency for first time Stat Boosting offenders simply because it is believed that they should have to wait out their punishment. To me, this seems like it would deter players from Stat Boosting again because they've had to wait such a long time for their punishment to expire for their first offense. This is the main reason I can see behind the Rules Committee implementing this no leniency policy. This is similar to how we now make rule breakers wait 7 days to appeal their justified punishment (if it's over 30 days). Making players wait these things out gives them more time to think about their punishment and likely more time to decide they'd rather not do it again, as Toki mentioned about obedience. As for the decision by the Rules Committee team; I am not on that sub-team so I cannot speak for them but Toki is correct in stating that they do not deal with hackers. Hacking is a much more common type of offense than RC-related punishments such as Stat Boosting, ESP, etc. so it would make no sense for the Rules Committee to have to constantly oversee dealing with normal types of hackers.

    For the 2-3 days it took for Wanderer to respond to your message; you have to understand that you are one of hundreds of individuals whom Wanderer denies and receives messages from each month. You also have to understand that he has a life outside of Mineplex as well as other duties here at the network. The 2-3 days he took to respond to you is actually a pretty good time frame for all of the things he has going on. It took a week for you to receive an appeal response after it had been escalated because your appeal, as I'm sure you can understand, is but one of numerous RC-related appeals that have to go through a different process than regular appeals. Not all appeals are the same or require the same robotic type of processing. Many players have had more than one Stat Boosting offense, so consideration has to go into the final decision for those situations. Your appeal likely took the time it did because it was behind a number of other RC-related appeals, which are processed in the order that they are submitted.

    I do not agree that we should have some type of centralized Appeals team. Quality Assurance deals with GWEN-related punishments as a part of their sub-team. This part of the work they do on their team is just a small fragment of the bigger things they have going on, so it wouldn't be fair to force anybody who decides to join QA into dealing with all regular hacking appeals. Rules Committee members are often on a variety of Sr.Mod teams, some of them even being regular Mods. They have plenty of responsibilities in their respective Sr.Mod teams and any other sub-teams they have chosen to take part in so it would, again, not be fair to make them physically process every RC-related punishment appeal that rolls in. The Forum Management team deals with appeals for a reason. We have a system that, while sometimes flawed, works pretty efficiently. There are times, such as your case, where things can unfortunately take longer than others, but that doesn't mean the team doesn't work efficiently and effectively. Additionally, I don't think Wanderer nor Toki nor Dean would be in favor of having a centralized Appeals team. The system works effectively as is and while it may take some time for appeals to receive a response, with the amount of appeals we receive every single day, it seems to be pretty productive.

    In the end, I apologize that this process was so long and tedious for you. We try our best to be accurate and timely with our appeals processes, but just like any other team, it cannot always be perfect. I can assure you that we are working every day on ensuring that each appeal is processed fairly and open-mindedly.
     
    Posted Mar 1, 2021
    Camull ✩, rilau, PieOrPi and 16 others like this.
  7. Or maybe you should think about consequences that will happen when you decide to do something
     
    Posted Mar 1, 2021
    xOeuf, Arii, BINGUSLOVER27 and 6 others like this.
  8. Just curious..how does stat boosting work?
     
    Posted Mar 1, 2021
    xOeuf likes this.
  9. Basically, if you’re in a party with or consistently in a team with a cheater and getting wins with them, it’s considered stat boosting because you’re reaping the benefits of a game that was won illegitimately. If you’re caught doing this it’s a 30 day ban + 30 day stat wipe and then a permanent ban if you’re caught doing it again after
     
    Posted Mar 2, 2021
  10. What does this mean. What do you mean when you say that you start recording when something feels off? Are you saying that you already knew you were going to get banned soon, so you started recording? And what exactly "felt off" about that situation?
     
    Posted Mar 2, 2021
  11. Ah, well n o better than a hacker, rightfully banned
     
    Posted Mar 2, 2021
    Fusafez likes this.
  12. I think the reason why the appeals take a while to process is because there are not many people who are able to approve them and they are only volunteers and not able to be online all hours of the day. I have only appealed once for a forums offense and it got accepted on the same day, so I lack experience with gameplay appeals, however I am going to say my opinion anyways. I think a central appeal team would be messy and unorganized, but I do think that there should be another way of helping players appeal. I think that on the appeals place, there should also be a table or something that says the different types of offenses and what staff/team deals with each one, that way you can quickly find a staff member to message about your appeal, and hopefully you won't have to go through 3 or 4 people.

    I also wanted to talk about what you said about hackers being unbanned only a few days after the appeal. I honestly think it's stupid on the server's part, because I don't think that the appeals should be accepted unless the person is able to prove that they're not hacking. Your appeal for stat boosting didn't get accepted, and a hacker's shouldn't either. That gives it some consistency between the offenses. While I get that there's special cases, I think that for the most part, this is how appeals should be handled.

    One more thing. This is kind of beside the point, but still in the realm of relevancy. I think that a player getting their punishment shortened just because they understand the rules after they already got punished isn't a good excuse, and I don't think that the ban length should be shortened because of them suddenly figuring out the rules and admitting what they did was wrong. I think that if a person is cheating intentionally, meaning that they are fully aware that they are making the game unfair for another player, then they shouldn't act like the ban time is too long. Because they shouldn't have cheated in the first place and not knowing the rules isn't a good enough excuse.
     
    Posted Mar 2, 2021
  13. Context: I got falsely banned, someone sent me a video of me taking abnormal KB. I watched it and I realized what caused me to not take the right amount of KB. While I was playing, I was lagging. This is why I will start to record if something wrong happens so if I end up getting banned for the same situation, I can include what might have happened in my appeal. I never expected to get banned because I don't and will never cheat in online games. By joining servers, I agree to follow all the rules. To answer your question, no I didn't know I was going to get banned since I avoid using cheats. False bans can happen sometimes
     
    Posted Mar 2, 2021,
    Last edited Mar 2, 2021
    Name Tag likes this.
  14. Are you even fully aware as to what we do for the server as a whole?

    Firstly - We test (with QAT), every update and new game releases on both Java and Bedrock. This takes multiple hours, many different testings and takes quite a lot of people to get done efficiently.

    Secondly - Not only do we test game updates/releases, but we also test anticheat updates too (going through game after game to find issues) so that the experience when playing after the update is actually both playable, and enjoyable.

    And finally, bug reports/appeals.

    QA's job as a whole isn't just "Banning closeters" as so many label it as, we do many other things to ""Assure Quality"" for the network overall.

    Even though recently we aided with the management of the COTC tournament in order to ensure the gameplay is fair for all teams, punishing those closeters whilst working on the GWEN v2 update (that was announced shortly after the first set).

    Enlighten me as to why you think QA is "one of the more useless staff teams", I'd be delighted to know your reasoning.
     
    Posted Mar 2, 2021
  15. Why are you sorry for what you did.
    I have a big punishment history and i don't feel sorry for any of those.
     
    Posted Mar 2, 2021
  16. Hackers are annoying. Stat boosting gives illegitimate stats without punishment. The former is an annoyance, the latter is a near game-breaker. If you want a high level, get good and start doing it yourself.
     
    Posted Mar 2, 2021
  17. QA is only dealing with GWEN bans or bans issued with GWEN logs as evidence. The reason for this is quite simple, we are the only team who has access to data behind the ban.
     
    Posted Mar 2, 2021
  18. Yes, I'm well aware of what you do. the only time I got banned for closet cheating is when a regular mod saw me bhop around 5 months ago and even before that QA couldn't tell I've been closeting for around 3 months? just strictly my opinion that QA is probably one of slowest teams. Even for GWEN appeals it says around 24-48 hours one of my friends got accepted 4 days later even with video proof it was a false ban
     
    Posted Mar 2, 2021
  19. You do not know what QA does if you think Bhopping is “Closet Cheating”
     
    Posted Mar 2, 2021
    Im_Ken likes this.
  20. Oh ok
     
    Posted Mar 2, 2021

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