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In Discussion Archer Kit Change/Nerf in SG

Discussion in 'Game Alterations' started by JMPhase, May 1, 2019.

  1. So I think archers barrage is too OP.

    In my experience I've found that it's almost impossible to dodge their arrows since you cannot strafe as easy as you would with normal arrows, especially since most people using it are already so good with a bow, and they deal insane damage later in the game when they have Power 1 bows (1 fully charged shot will deal around 2.5 hearts to a full chain armoured player, might not seem like much but remember they're going to be shooting you like, every 3 seconds)

    Below are my suggested changes to the archer kit, I wanted to make it still appealing to those who prefer/like using a bow, but not OP in the way it is now.

    - Barrage is completely gone

    + They get 1 arrows per kill (does not have to be archery, any kill get's them an arrow)

    + They have a weaker version of the 'Longshot' ability from champions (the further their arrow travels before hitting the more damage it does) I was thinking half a heart of extra damage every 12 blocks seemed pretty reasonable, I put down some images so you can get a better idea how far/easy/hard it is.

    Gold Armour is to represent the Archer.
    Leather Armour is how far he has to hit to get half a heart of Longshot damage.
    Iron Armour is how far he has to hit to get a full heart of Longshot damage.

    * https://i.imgur.com/JU0FNyC.png
    * https://i.imgur.com/NEAqNpl.png
    * https://i.imgur.com/aLWGe0o.png

    Let me know what you think of my changes.
    Posted May 1, 2019,
    Last edited May 21, 2019
    SpitefulNick likes this.
  2. The fact that you can bow spam (continuously shooting arrows at enemies charging at you) is already annoying and frustrating enough and you can also use it in the form of rod in PvP so I think the only addition they should have implemented is getting 1 arrow every kill.

    Barrage clearly needs to leave as if you load up and spray horizontally, it it a guarenteed hit. Players who are trying to escape in a duel with you also have no chance as the usage of the spray technique will spell the end of their game.

    With the above said, arrows should not receive any further abilities or upgrades as it can then counter every kit and kills the skill aspect of the game.


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    Posted May 1, 2019,
    Last edited May 1, 2019
    JMPhase likes this.
  3. I edited the thread with some new information and removed the quick shot giving slowness because I realise that would kind of make Hilt Smash from Knight useless.

    I still believe longshot can stay though since it needs something to make it worth using.
    OP OP
    OP OP Posted May 2, 2019
  4. I like it.
    Posted May 2, 2019
    JMPhase likes this.
  5. I would have to disagree with this one. The archer kit has been a kit for a long time in SG, and there haven’t really been any problems with it being too OP in my opinion. The barrage is not too overpowered in my opinion because although there are more arrows shot at once for the barrage, the accuracy is very poor compared to a normal bow and arrow. Plus only getting an arrow when you get a kill doesn’t really make much sense to me as if you are archer kit, you should be able to automatically get arrows, it just makes sense for an archer. The long shot being implemented sounds like an interesting idea, but I don’t really think it would fit in Survival Games. The only thing i could see potentially as a decent change would be maybe having a longer wait time between getting the arrows, and implementing the one arrow per kill to make up for the longer wait time. Thanks for the suggestion, but as a whole it’s a -1 from me.
    Posted May 2, 2019
  6. I've re-read this a few times and I'm not sure if you remember what barrage is. It literally surrounds their true shot with a ton of other arrows, giving them like 5x the accuracy.

    They are still getting their automatic arrows, I just thought getting 1 per kill would be a nice small bonus.

    I disagree on this. Since there are many abilities shared between Champions and SG already, such as Knights Hilt Smash, Barbarians Cleave, Assassins Backstab and even Archer's Barrage. I don't think Longshot being in SG is really that out of place.

    I thought you disagreed with the 1 arrow per kill?
    OP OP
    OP OP Posted May 2, 2019
    SpitefulNick likes this.
  7. I don’t think that 1 arrow per kill should REPLACE barrage, as I thought that was what you were suggesting at the time. I do think that it would be okay as a balancer if there was a nerf on the kit for example lengthening the wait time between arrows, as I stated above. Sorry for the confusion.
    Posted May 2, 2019
  8. .
    OP OP
    OP OP Posted May 3, 2019
  9. Is there a point to this message
    Posted May 3, 2019
    Jaek likes this.
  10. It's a bump
    OP OP
    OP OP Posted May 5, 2019,
    Last edited May 7, 2019
  11. Hmmm I don’t play SG much, but let’s just say you are correct in saying barrage is OP. When you look at a game like SG, most fights are in close combat and while shooting from afar can be good, it most likely won’t kill a player as maps usually have sufficient cover.

    So you suggest a longshot passive. The reason why it works in Champions is basically there’s an objective to defend which makes setting up a sniping location easier. In a game of SG, where most of combat is in melee range, would longshot really be good enough?

    Now I understand how bows are suppose to be long ranged, but like I said above, won’t be enough to kill someone from afar with the amount of cover from the map. Your changes are a pretty big nerf in my opinion, and perhaps you could add something that could help in closer ranges? Perhaps you could add a quick shot ability in which left clicking instantly shoots out a fully powered arrow with reduced damage or something.
    Posted May 5, 2019
    JMPhase and ScrompLord like this.
  12. Hey there,

    I've played many games of SG facing opponents using archer kit, and I do believe that it does need some sort of nerf. The barrage ability makes it impossible for opponents to escape a fight and is incredibly effective at initiating fights.

    I believe your proposed changes are very good and well balanced. Replacing barrage with the ability to receive more arrows once you get a kill is a great idea, as long as the player still maintains their ability to receive arrows passively. The long shot addition is also a very good idea and could even be buffed a little [the damage increase could begin at a shorter range].

    In my opinion, playing survival games should not feel like playing champions, however, with addition of barrage to the archer kit, it does begin to feel like that. Good luck with your proposed idea, I'm all for it!
    Posted May 5, 2019
    JMPhase likes this.
  13. I would like to agree with PyroWrites by saying that the archer kit is well balanced where it stands. The barrage, although easy to aim with, is considerably more difficult to spam as players must first charge their bows. Furthermore, if a player were to skip the barrage and fire singles, there is nothing the kit can provide that their opponent would go without.

    - I love the idea of players getting an extra arrow with a kill! It sounds fun and could make the kit holder less vulnerable to cleanups.

    - I find the idea of an added “longshot” ability to be interesting; however, the perk does not sound effective enough to replace the barrage.
    Posted May 5, 2019
    Johnny Welamton likes this.
  14. The point isn’t to spam, it’s to charge up barrage so you can’t miss. And most of the time, you won’t need to charge up barrage all the way if they are close enough and you are confident that you can hit them.
    Posted May 5, 2019
  15. (edit, there is a tldr at the bottom of this section if you don't wanna read all)

    You're right, on paper. It's true that most fighting in SG happens with melee rather than ranged, and that there are usually decent spots to take cover. There are a few scenarios where the Archer's issues are most prominent:

    -Running Away From Somebody
    -Chasing Somebody
    -Death Match

    Running Away From Somebody
    This is extremely difficult to do when your chaser is an Archer kit user. For me personally I find myself running away most when I'm about to lose a fight, say I'm down to 5 hearts and decide to book it, the person who got me that low was an Archer kit, so what do they do when I start running? They shoot. They hit me, they deal 2 hearts, I'm at 3, they shoot me again, I'm now at 1 heart, I have no hunger, I hide behind a tree/in a house and Mushroom Stew, but now they're coming, I'm still too low to fight, I have to run. Where? The open. I try so... so hard to strafe and be unpredictable... 'JMPhase was killed by ___ with Archery'

    See what I mean :P

    Chasing Somebody
    This ones less of an issue than trying to run away but still very frustrating, if you're chasing somebody down and they're a decent amount of blocks ahead of you, it's pretty easy for them to reverse the chase if their aim is good and they have a power 1 bow, they really only need to hit you 3 or so times (varies depending on armor) to put you into the same situation I described in 'Running Away From Somebody'. Of course other kits have their ways of shaking off chasers, Brawlers can ground pound, Bombers can lay TNT, Axemen can throw axes (Which I also think is OP but that's another thread for another day) but those ones have actual downsides, once a Brawler uses his ground pound he's not going to have it for another 10-15 seconds. Bombers TNT is very easily avoidable and they can usually only do it twice before needing to wait a while and Axeman will eventually run out of axes.

    Death Match
    You can probably guess this one, usually there's not really any good cover spots in death match arenas, the only good one I can think of is Primal and Aztec Islands.

    TLDR OF THIS SECTION: That won't work, they will lower your health, you will hide, then they will come close forcing you into to run back into the open where you're basically screwed.

    I think it might could be, it might could be. Every 15 blocks for an extra half a heart seems pretty reasonable to me, especially when this is on top of them receiving:
    - 1 arrows every 20 seconds
    - 1 arrows per kill
    - quick shot ability

    Funnily enough they actually do have a quick shot, not sure when it was added, but it's there, so they do actually have something that can be used in close combat.
    --- Post updated ---
    OP OP
    OP OP Posted May 7, 2019
  16. I agree with you on this. The changes you have suggested would indeed keep Archer useful while making it less annoying. Archer quite balanced how it is and I don't think changes are a dire need. +1 arrow per kill should be changed to +2 arrows per kill because kills are hard to get in Survival Games, so +2 would be a little more useful. Longshot encourages players to not bow spam and instead use their bows to damage from afar. I think something else needs to be added to call this somewhat balanced. This places a pretty big nerf on Archer. I suggest spawning with a bow but not fletching any arrows until the first thirty seconds of the game has passed. This allows Archer to be able to have a weapon on a spawn that they could use. Overall, I think this needs some tweaking but I think an Archer rework is somewhat needed. I'll be giving this a +0.5
    Posted May 7, 2019
  17. They actually do get a bow after a minute (I think) but I guess spawning with one wouldn't really change much. Also I think 1 arrow per kill is fair. They are getting one every 20 seconds and arrows aren't generalyl too hard to come by, especially later in the game.

    1. They charge for literally 3 seconds and that's it.
    2. They have longshot, get extra arrows and have quickshot
    3. That's the point of this thread, barrage is way TOO effective.
    --- Post updated ---
    Final Bump; if this doesn't get processed soon then I'll make a brand new threadthat includes more about other kits that should be nerfed/changed.
    OP OP
    OP OP Posted May 11, 2019,
    Last edited May 8, 2019
  18. It doesn’t really matter if it’s effective enough if it’s a nerf to a overpowered ability. If you add an op ability with equal power to the replaced ability then it’s useless.
    --- Post updated ---
    I’ve already made a thread on why I think archer is broken with a bunch of other kits +1
    Posted May 15, 2019
  19. Sorry I haven’t replied before, but yeah, if Archer already has a tool to use in close combat, it seems logical for barrage, a passive that’s very good in any situation, to be replaced with a passive that benefits long range hits.

    Though, I do think you could reduce the distance per damage.
    Posted May 15, 2019
  20. Hey,

    I don't really think Archer needs an update at this point in time. Sure, lots of people believe that Archer kit is OP because of barrage and it's constant arrow boost, but I don't think barrage should be totally removed.

    With this happening, the unique sense of Archer would disperse. Barrage is not as OP as people might think it is, I've lost many times to good knights and brawlers who know how to counter the bow in the first place. I do believe that barrage can be OP in certain situations, but you have to remember that SG maps have lots of blocks, blocks you can take cover behind. When the border is closed in, you can take cover behind the blocks of mid or the spawn pedestals, and use a rod or any projectiles to hit the Archer, attempting to alter their aim. This isn't something I would like to change.

    With barrage gone, and no spawn arrows, what would Archer even be? 1 arrow per kill is barely anything, we can also find arrows in chests so it's not like arrows are rare in the game. Flint, feathers, and sticks are also found easily so it wouldn't be trouble crafting them.

    I really can't see something Champions related being implemented into SG. SG is a vanilla game, there's nothing really special about it, it's almost pure pvp. Sure the kits, gold sword, and mushroom stew have a different taste, but it's almost the same. Adding something Champions related wouldn't be too good, in my opinion. It'd ruin the taste of normal pvp of SG.

    Overall, I don't really agree with any changes to Archer Kit at the moment.
    Posted May 20, 2019

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