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In Discussion Bring Back Castle Siege [Evidence Regarding Its Justified Revival]

Discussion in 'New Game Discussion' started by Danese, May 1, 2020.


Would You Want CS To Be Brought Back?

  1. Yes!

    189 vote(s)
  2. Maybe...

    25 vote(s)
  3. No.

    14 vote(s)
  1. Don’t worry about queue splitting bud. If we get 60-80 players to fill up a lobby consistently, that in it self is an achievement. The games themself are are only 8 mins max. I’m sure a small lobby of 20 players can wait a few minutes for the big server to split. Remember, CS is not like cakewars where dozens of games run at once. A better analogy of what it is [or what it should be] is Hypixel’s mega skywars, where the wait times are significantly longer, but there is a consistent number of 80+ people. Once again, you are not properly supporting your argument. First you say that CS lacks players and now you say that there is no doubt the lobbies fill up?
    Posted Aug 13, 2020
  2. Thanks for giving me feedback!

    Hypixel has a big enough playerbase to support a "mega skywars" gamemode, unlike Mineplex where splitting up the playercounts will be a major issue.

    The same can be said for any other mini-game. Why not have an NPC for every mixed-arcade game, or at least more than what we have right now? Because queue splitting is a problem.

    Ah sorry for not clarifying. What I mean is that CS lacks players in MPS, that much is obvious. Most times there either a) isn't an MPS or b) an MPS that has less than 10 players. Now you may try to discredit me, but other members of your movement recognize this and try to push it away as me joining during bad times. I live in the US, where most Mineplex players come from, and I have a normal sleep schedule. The times I go on should reflect the majority of other players.

    Now if you were to give Castle Siege it's own NPC, and say Castle Siege is back everywhere, will older players come back? Probably only leaderboard players so they can try to grind their wins, the same can't be said for others who have moved onto other servers. While players who frequent Mineplex will join Castle Siege, creating longer queue times for other games, unless you are saying that only ReviveCS Members will be joining these lobbies.

    I would like to see Castle Siege come back, but as a good decision. In Mineplex's current state, it wouldn't be. Perhaps if Mineplex can increase it's overall playercount first, then this could be a possibility.

    Posted Aug 13, 2020
  3. You can’t compare CS to MP mini games. It’s a different breed. I think you also misunderstood my analogy to hypixel’a mega skywars. It has nothing to do with with the player counts of the global server. In mega skywars, players ARE willing to wait the extra 5-10 minutes while the lobbies fill up. Likewise, with long game cycles in CS, players would be willing to wait these extra few minutes to join the game(which we have already seen in MPSs). Now, on to the pressing issue of queue splitting. Depending on the feedback from a [hypothetical] CS testing launch, I suggest we approach the issue of player splitting like so:

    Games of CS should support up to 100 players(if the servers allow). Depending on the global queue to join the game, there should only be 1 or 2 lobbies for CS(once again, similar to Mega Skywars). Let’s say there are 60 players in CS-1 and 40 more are joining the queue. Instead of opening a new CS-2 server, these 40, they should be consolidated to the initial server as spectators to start. Then, after waiting 8 minutes max, they can join the cycle. If player counts still exceed this, opening a second server is justifiable. It’s simple supply and demand- a new server does not need to be opened unless a sufficient amount of players queue. Of course, this would require a substantial amount of work on the developer end, but I’ve seen it in many servers and I believe mineplex CS should implement it. Remember, comparing CS to arcade games is like comparing apples to oranges. CS is most definitely a MEGA game And deserves a unique queuing system. That being said, it is impossible to determine the logistics of this without a beta relaunch of CS. The ReviveCS community has provided more than enough evidence to justify a relaunch <3.

    Lastly, your point about CS lacking players in MPSs... please READ Sobek’s last few points where he has already disproved this. Why do you keep arguing the same thing and expect different results? Why? Maybe you join at bad times because you don’t check the discord status? Please provide something more interesting to argue against and stop building the weak argument of lack of players in the MPS.

    I’ve always reckoned that humanity was a learning species but I’m starting to have my doubts.

    Posted Aug 13, 2020
  4. This makes 0 sense if it gets more players then other games it should come back if it hurts the player count of other games that just shows that people love this game
    Posted Aug 13, 2020
  5. Also CS mps are mostly supplied by our community so even if no other players joined ever we would still have lots of people playing if it came back which would not split the community if anything not adding it back would split the community even more
    Posted Aug 13, 2020
    Danese, rmotheram, Cakeys and 3 others like this.
  6. At the end of the day, Mineplex isn't going to gain many new players unless it does something big. We can't wait around and hope that Mineplex will start hitting big numbers of players. I have heard players say that we should not add a new game because it would split up the player count too much, but if we don't add any new games, then Mineplex will slowly become irrelevant, and die out. In Mineplex's current state, we need a big hit game to capture the attention of players. CS is a new game to those who have not experienced it before, and a throwback for those who remember it. I can't say for sure how many people would return if CS was re-added, but I you more than just the leaderboard players would come if Mineplex's first game was re-added.

    CS was removed because in 2018 there was a lack of players. However, we have proven that lack of players is no longer an issue for CS. It can be laggy, and like any other game CS has bugs, however both of these issues can be fixed. It would probably need a unique queuing system to be the most fun, but that is definitely possible. It would take work to restore CS as a main Mineplex game, but it would definitely help Mineplex in the long run.
    Posted Aug 13, 2020
  7. We better not go around updating dieing games or even creating new ones, because doing so might draw players away from other games.
    Posted Aug 13, 2020
  8. you keep saying not to bring back castle siege but in your signiture where it says "Reviving mineplex" your FIRST POINT is to revive CS. You also have a guide on how to play CS. Why are you doing this? Please tell me why. You claimed you agreed with revive CS in your post, and THE FIRST reply to "Reviving Mineplex" exposes your odd double sidedness. Seems a bit suspicious and I would love a explanation to what you are thinking.
    Posted Aug 13, 2020,
    Last edited Aug 13, 2020
  9. I really can't be bothered to read everything but i have saw that people say that the games of CS never start.
    That issue can be easily solved.
    They should add messages that pop up in the main lobbies which are telling people that a castle siege lobby is starting to fill up ,also that message should have the CLICK HERE to join in it as well.
    Another thing that would maybe get people to join is if every game had its separate daily and weekly missions .
    Posted Aug 13, 2020
  10. Hey i would recommend reading most of it however i do strongly agree hypixel does that for a few of its games and it works great!
    Posted Aug 13, 2020
  11. Seems like you come on our MPS once a week, how do you have enough evidence to show that we lack players? Many of us are going back to school, therefore our player count decreases. You seem to feel agitated everytime someone says #ReviveCS in the chat? Constantly responding with #CSwasremovedforareason we get you may not support our cause but please keep it to yourself. You have “aspiring trainee” in your signature LOL it seems pretty childish to say these things and make up random hashtags that no one will end up using. Not to mention you state irrelevant statements that have nothing to do with your arguments. I don’t see how your second statement was relevant at all to your arguments, anyone can join our MPS and support it, I am not sure why you included that.

    Now the hacker part, Mineplex does have staff for a reason lol, you state a game can finish in a minute? Literally any legit player can do that, you do realize that the king has 40 HP? It will take at least 40 hits before being able to finish the game, and what does CW system have to do with anything? Any hacker can wait 20 seconds and eat every cake later on, that doesn’t mean that theres a “system” to counter hackers.

    Do you know why MPS servers don’t get much players? There are no rewards, xp, shards, and win counts. I guarantee you if there were to be rewards gained when playing CS more players would join for xp, shards gems etc. If we want larger games we would obviously need consistent advertising? I don’t know if you have noticed but mineplex has decreased in popularity over the past few years and lost thousands of players. A good portion of those who have quit were players who left due to the removal of CS. Also can you provide more evidence in your arguments? It doesn’t seem like accurate evidence if you come on our MPS once a week for 20min... Good day to you Mr “Aspiring trainee” lmao
    Posted Aug 13, 2020
  12. Actually, the quarantine is not really affecting Mineplex at all at this time. Initially, when the quarantine just began, Mineplex went all the way up to 4000 players. Now, it has dropped back to 2000 again, which is probably where it would be if there was no quarantine. Pretty much, the whole quarantine period is over for Mineplex and Mineplex has gone down to its normal player count again
    Posted Aug 13, 2020,
    Last edited Aug 13, 2020
  13. A note beforehand, I believe Castle Siege is a very fun game, one of the funnest Mineplex had to offer, but it still simply isn’t a good idea to add it in right now.

    “No one plays Castle Siege”. This "argument" is based entirely on assumptions. My counter-argument is based entirely on actual evidence. -We have been running a Castle Siege discord server where we advertise our MPS's and only run Castle Siege.

    -This discord server has a total of 135 players (and it's still continuing to grow). Additionally, our MPS's are continuing to run for periods of between 8 and 12 consecutive hours.

    Your first point consists of the number of players within your discord server (I’m not sure how many players are in it currently), but is this a good measure of the number of people playing Castle Siege. I’m not sure of how many players within this discord have either a) been coerced to join the discord server through the consistent bombardment of Castle Siege advertising in lobbies, /bc’s redirecting to the movement, and the Castle Siege thread being pushed up to the top of the new posts section every day on the forums by irrelevant posts indirectly boosting it or b) they actually want to be in the discord and have an interest to reviving Castle Siege. That being said, the amount of players within the discord may not be accurate. Due to the current pandemic, Mineplex overall has seen many members return, some of these members going to the open arms of the ReviveCS Movement, but now with the initial surge in players going down, no doubt some of these discord members will stop playing Castle Siege and Mineplex in general. I also cite a message I have seen earlier today in the MPS saying “many of our players are returning to school” (not sure about the exact wording, but something along the lines of that). This high-profile member admits that other members of the movement will start to leave. You also say that your MPS’s run for 8 to 12 hours. I doubt this is true, most times I join it dies within 30 minutes and the host decides to shut down the server. Even if it is, how many players are on within these 8 hours, 10, 15? Your proposed solution is to lower the player start count to 20, but even then there won’t be enough players to start an actual game.

    "There were times where the games would not start due to nobody being on the server."

    If my previous counter-argument was completely ignored by you (as evident by still considering this argument as not yet "debunked"), let me show you something.

    This is the current state of affairs for the arcade lobbies [Heads up, there's a lot!]:

    There are SO MANY arcade servers that consistently have no games running due to the lack of players on the given arcade game-specific server.

    These games require 16 players for a filled lobby. They also require 8 players to start. Yet, so many of them are running absolutely no games at any given time.

    Meanwhile, our Castle Siege MPS servers continue to have a minimum of 20 players on at any given time, very rarely dropping anywhere below 15 players online.

    I’m not sure what you are referring to, the original game or your MPS?

    Let’s assume it’s the original game, this is completely true, most times games wouldn’t be able to start, and this is the main reason why Castle Siege was removed.

    Now talking about if this is referring to your MPS, sure games would start because it’s a MPS, it only requires 2 players to start. You bring up your “statistics” from before, but this is false. One screenshot does not justify “8 - 12 consecutive hours” nor “Very rarely dropping to below 15 players”. Almost everyday, I join one of your MPS’s, and this is not the case. Regarding your statements about Mixed Arcade, although the individual games do not have many players, they all rotate within Mixed Arcade. Furthermore, these games are kept because there are no game-breaking bugs, or anything that may be detrimental to Mineplex in the future.

    "I don't think we can spare the dev time."

    Sorry to put it bluntly (I'm not, but let's just pretend I am), but, considering the excess amount of players who are playing this game at any given time, I feel like you should make some dev time for this game

    I completely agree with this statement, I don’t think we can spare the developer time. In your counter-argument you provide no evidence as to why, and only cite your opinions. Why should Castle Siege be updated first instead of other game modes? Furthermore, developer time is very limited right now as many Java devs have recently left, and the rest are focusing on more pressing and server-wide issues. Like improving GWEN and creating a new gamemode. Even if Devs get around to updating Castle Siege, there are a lot of bugs and problems: Neu’s- wolf spawn, skeleton, hitboxing (could be better), etc.

    "The game gets laggy when handling a large number of players on the server."

    First, MPS's, in my experience, are somewhat weaker than dedicated servers (at least, dedicated servers for larger games, like bridges).

    This statement is also true, but I believe your proposed solutions can help ease the burden. However, your statement about MPS’s also has no evidence and is based entirely on assumptions.

    The game mode would require considerable redesign for this."

    As I have said repeatedly, we have been running games with a minimum of 20 players at any given time for 8 to 12 hours on end. Additionally, the amount of time we are continuously running our MPS's is continuing to increase in the number of consecutive hours they are running games with more than 20 players.

    Let me assure you, redesigning the game for this change in the player count is unnecessary.

    Castle Siege would require redesign especially since you are lowering the amount of players able to play in a single game. It is much more fun to play in a Castle Siege game of 80 players rather than one in 10 players. I’m not sure why you cite your factually-incorrect evidence here, especially as it doesn’t relate to why it shouldn’t need redesign. In Castle Siege games where there are overall less players, it makes it much more defender sided. This is because defenders wouldn’t have to fall back (since there are basically no undead pushing), so they can always defend the front gates. The limited amount of horses, that makes the game balanced when there are more players, poses no problem if every defender can now get a horse.

    "The game is not fun." I disagree, and so do the 65 players playing in our MPS at the time of me writing this post, along with the 175 players presently within our discord server (and yes, they are all continuously active), as well as the large number of players continuing to join our discord server every day.

    It's your opinion, yes; however, your opinion is not the popular opinion in this situation. Given this, your opinion is not a valid argument against the revival of this game mode

    Have to agree with you here, this statement is completely false.

    "The game is unbalanced"

    It's not. Please play the game before saying this. If I said that DOM is unbalanced, the DOM community would laugh at me. Yet, with the exact same conditions, this "argument" against the revival of CS is valid?

    Yeah, no.

    As I addressed two points above, the game is mostly defender-sided if you are going to reduce the total number of players in a lobby. This can be combated, but the game will have to be re-designed, and go through considerable testing.

    "Players can just play the game on an MPS."

    Playing Castle Siege on an MPS server is not a long-term solution.

    A. There's lag (as mentioned earlier). In my experience, Mineplex Player Servers are not meant to be "as buff" as servers that are dedicated to games with large traffic (such as, say, for bridges). They seem to be designed for, well, relatively small groups of friends to hang out on. As such, trying to run an MPS with 60 players on at a time results in the server dragging and the game becoming unplayable. We've had to limit the size of our MPS's in order to reduce the amount of lag present.

    This is actually where the statement above came from (suggesting that the game starts w/ a minimum of 20 players and a limit of 50). While running our MPS's, we've found that a 50 player game runs much more smoothly than if we extend the limit past that point. Not to mention, as stated above, the game Castle Siege is still quite enjoyable, even with a lobby of only 20 players. As a matter of fact, the game is still relatively balanced with 20 players (10 per team).

    One of the reasons as to why it was quite difficult to justify reducing the game start size below 50 players was due to trying to keep the game balanced. This was discussed by the old Castle Siege Game Insites group back in 2017 and 2018. Considering that the number of players in the game is a heavily weighted factor regarding balancing the game, it's no surprise that this was frequently debated upon, even by casual players in the games themselves.

    However, the games we have run have shown, to me at least, that a 20 player game is still quite balanced for both teams.

    Will players leaving become more of an issue due to this lower player start limit.

    Well, I won't try to BS you or even lie to you. The answer is yes, it will.

    However, the fact still remains that Mineplex does not have nearly as many players on at a given time as it did back in 2015: a time where we were able to have 6 Castle Siege lobbies running with a 60 player start limit. And, at that time, there were still lobbies that players purchased ranks to join because of the fact that so many of the lobbies were at max capacity.

    Now, the average daily player count seems to be at around 1-2 thousand players. Sacrifices must be made for just about all of the games on the network. It was this reason that the game was removed in the first place.

    The reason I have made this thread and have provided so much actual evidence is to show that this game can, in fact, actually stand a chance on the Network and that it is feasible to actually rerelease dedicated game lobbies for Castle Siege.

    With the modifications to the game lobbies themselves (stated above), I am confident that re-adding these servers for CS will be a step that will greatly increase the amount of joy within our community towards the staff team. Doing so would prove to be beneficial both for us, as we will get to play our favorite game again without needing to go into an MPS, and the Mineplex staff team in its entirety, as this would act as a form of "we do listen to our community" to community members who don't feel this way already.

    B. There are a ton of players who really wish that they could, once again, gain Castle Siege stats while playing CS. Due to the game being shoved into an MPS, the achievement kits are unobtainable for the majority of players. Hell, there are even many dedicated Castle Siege players who were one or two achievements away from getting those kits, and will never be able to do so because of the fact that you cannot gain any CS stats from an MPS.

    Players can just play the game on an MPS. Your opinion about MPS’s being more laggy has no evidence backing it up. You also state it yourself “Will players leaving become more of an issue due to this lower player start limit. Well, I won't try to BS you or even lie to you. The answer is yes, it will.” If you really want the achievement kit, you can always play on the csforever com mcs. Personally, I don’t play games for the rewards but for the fun experiences I enjoy while playing.

    "Doing so will give other groups a form of 'justification' to re-add other removed games, like wizards" Are there MPS's that are running for a dozen consecutive hours with a minimum of 20 players online at any given time? No.

    Would it be nice to bring back games like Wizards? Yes.

    Is there proof that it would perform well? Right now, no. However, I greatly encourage all of you Wizards fans to step up and do what we are doing right now. If you believe that Wizards should be brought back just as passionately as we do for Castle Siege, by all means, do it!

    Is there proof that CS would perform well? Yes. Absolutely. I mean, did you even read this thread up to this point? I have continued to provide justification after justification for literally every single point on this thread, starting with legitimate recorded screenshots showing what I am saying is true.

    I’m going to have to agree with you here. Although I’m unsure why you keep stressing the fact that you have “legitimate” screenshots….

    "Players are only joining the MPS because 'the MPS at hand contains a large amount of players' and not because Castle Siege is a community favorite." This statement is beyond ignorant, to say the least. Whenever we advertise our MPS on our discord server, at least 20 players join within the first few minutes of that post going up. And, during the afternoon or on the weekends, the amount of players continues to increase over the course of the following 10-ish minutes.

    Could players be joining this MPS because there is a large number of players? Possibly. But, what causes these MPS's to become the largest running MPS on the network at certain times?

    I mean, if players only joined the MPS because there are a large number of people on it at once, the server itself would not become large as it would need to be large in the first place! It's a paradox that is only solved by becoming large on its own. IE: a large portion of the player base actually enjoys the game mode in the first place.

    You admit yourself that additional players join your MPS’s because there is already a lot of players. What causes them to become the largest running? A lot of advertising: your discord, your community in-game, and getting people from hub to join through consistent lobby spam.

    Furthermore, I’m not sure why I’m getting singled out. I’m just trying to inform you guys why Castle Siege hasn’t been brought back yet. I believe it’s a very fun gamemode, and I’m on one of your MPS’s almost everyday. I created a guide and also have helped Danese make the CS Map Fixes Pt 2 Document.

    Hopefully one day Castle Siege will be brought back.

    Posted Aug 13, 2020
  14. Hey!

    I'm just going to address these parts of your post, as I feel the others have been adequately replied to.

    For your first point, about our MPS lacking players, you have to understand that 1: a good number of our hosts live in Europe, and they get player counts as high as 70 on some days, with their servers usually peaking around 40 on others (may be higher, someone please correct me if I'm wrong) and 2: many of our American hosts have real-life obligations, like work and school, that prevent them from hosting at "normal" times for players in the US. This means that some popular times are left uncovered by hosts, simply because we all have real lives outside of Mineplex and Castle Siege. There are so many screenshots of MPS's with high player counts; you just have to know when to play.

    For your other point, I can say with confidence that older players have come back because of the Revive CS movement. Both casual players and leaderboard players have returned to playing Castle Siege, and I myself came back from a 2 year period of inactivity on Mineplex because I heard about Revive CS. That was nearly five months ago, and I'm still playing on Mineplex almost daily, even hopping into games other than CS when there isn't an MPS up. I obviously can't speak for everyone, but you shouldn't discount the people that will come back to Mineplex. Many current CS players who played before its removal are still in touch or know how to get in touch with old players who've left Mineplex, and we have hopes of accomplishing just that. Also, you imply that people coming back to grind wins is a bad thing, but many players who grind stats also genuinely enjoy the game, and honestly, if they're filling up lobbies, I don't see why their motivation for playing matters.

    Anyway, thanks for your response!

    Posted Aug 13, 2020
  15. Hey i actually agree with most of these points! A few quick notes our discord server currently has almost 400 players which is a lot more then when dan first made his post. Two not sure where i could find the proof but just from my experience mps lag a lot more then main lobby.
    I also wanted to apologize for any toxicity you have received from anyone including me over your opinions i understand that you have the game and servers best interest in heart.
    Posted Aug 13, 2020,
    Last edited Aug 13, 2020
    Danese, miraclebuilder19 and Paladise like this.
  16. Hey @Bobtroopo! Before I say anything, I would like to thank you for putting so much time into explaining your points, I mean that's some real dedication!

    I'm not going to reply to all of your points, some of which I agree with, however there were some parts that stood out to me that I would just like to give my thinking on.

    Your point about dev time is one of the parts that stood out to me. As LordSobek stated before, there really aren't that much bugs or problems with CS, and the few bugs and problems we do have (hitboxxing and the wolf spawn problem on neush) can be dealt with by our very own @CSBuildTeam :) !

    Another point that really stuck out to me is your point about needing to redesign CS if player maximum and minimum were lowered. In your statement you said lower player counts make the game more defender sided. This is completely incorrect and can be easily proven by playing on our MPS. We've found that undead often win even with lower player counts (which is why the maps were revamped to give more of an advantage to defenders). As for your part about the game is more fun to play with 80 players, I think most of the CS community can tell you that this is not the case. 80 player games often create more lag, and makes individual skill not as important, which is why most of our player base will tell you that 50 player games are much more fun than 60+ player games. To sum this all up, our MPS has already proven that CS is just as fun, if not more fun with smaller player counts.

    #ReviveCS :)
    Posted Aug 13, 2020
    Danese, Young_Inventor and LordSobek like this.
  17. Yeah i agree the game is still pretty even at low player counts i personally think 50-60 is optimal
    Posted Aug 13, 2020
  18. I love the idea of seeing Castle Siege back on Mineplex someday. Castle Siege was one of the first games that I played while on Mineplex and was definitely one of my favorites. It was such an exciting and unique game, and was one of the top games on the network years back. Mineplex's reasons for the removal of the game was due to a low player count around the time of its removal, maintaining it as a quality game, and several other reasons as well if I am not mistaken. That said, reading through this thread proves that there is a strong and likely growing amount of support for adding it back.

    If Castle Siege is returned and there is theoretically still an issue with having a low player count sometimes, then perhaps a potential solution could be to slightly lower the minimum amount of needed players to start a game (for instance, by around 20 players). Mineplex might have to update the game semi-frequently in order to maintain, update, and improve the fun in-game qualities and to keep the interest of all the players, but I believe that it would be worth it in the long-term. If Castle Siege was to return, I personally feel that it would be nice if there was 2.0 version with potentially new features including new kits for the attack team and the defense team, updated/modified maps, and maybe even a slight gameplay modification depending on what extent the staff team and developers would want to update the game.

    There definitely is a growing support for the revival of this retired game, and I for one am all for it as long as the games are easy to start and can be maintained. All in all, I would love to see Castle Siege return someday :D.
    Posted Aug 13, 2020,
    Last edited Aug 13, 2020
  19. And why do players come back? Because they enjoy the gamemode. (we don't spam lobbies "consistently" lol)

    -you keep saying "just play it in mps". Explain why we shouldnt just remove other games and just "play them in mps".

    -sorry to break it to you but mineplex is a dead server so a lower player req is needed

    -discord paragraph: our discord is active and has lots of members, isn't a given that people need to come and go at school time? you should see mineplex during the school year. You also claim simply put that the discord is just players joining after the discord being plugged in lobbies. It could also be players enjoying the game?

    "Furthermore, I’m not sure why I’m getting singled out. I’m just trying to inform you guys why Castle Siege hasn’t been brought back yet. I believe it’s a very fun gamemode, and I’m on one of your MPS’s almost everyday. I created a guide and also have helped Danese make the CS Map Fixes Pt 2 Document."

    Well you're presenting false statements (discord being unactive), attacking us for advertising our mps, which everyone does, then making statements like #CSwasremovedforareason and #ReviveCS but mineplex first (in your revive mineplex thing it says to revive mineplex you need to bring back CS fyi)

    We aren't singling you out, we're just rebutteling

    (edit: grammar and such)
    Posted Aug 14, 2020,
    Last edited Aug 14, 2020
  20. As someone who used to play Castle Siege and it was one of my favourite games, Mineplex simply doesn't have the player base to justify such a game. It hurts to say but it's just the truth.
    Posted Aug 14, 2020
    Paladise likes this.

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