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In Discussion Disliking Maps

Discussion in 'General Idea Discussion' started by Worpp, Dec 10, 2019.

  1. @HeyItsAdam suggested a really nice idea that would be worth implementing on the server. We were discussing the possibilities that could happen if we knew what maps were voted for constantly, such as knowing what maps are very popular and why (it can be either good or bad) and which ones are just not popular and why that would be the case.

    However, our main focus was on maps that people generally don't like. Currently, there isn't any way to know what maps are the most disliked, so it's harder to prove maps are disliked by the community. By introducing a feature that allows the community to also dislike maps, we can overall see what maps needs changing or might need to be removed.

    What do you guys think? And don't forget, when you reply, make sure you're adding to the discussion! Don't just say "Yes I like it!" or copy another reply, add on to this idea that will make it better!
    Posted Dec 10, 2019
  2. Ehhhh... I don't know, people work very hard on these maps... It would be a little mean to implement a feature of likes and dislikes on a map (don't wanna crush other people's dreams!)

    The maps with more dislikes are also going to get a lot of discussion (and a couple people may even make some memes) and that could make someone upset. Believe me.

    Leaning more on the no side, -0.75.
    Posted Dec 10, 2019
  3. Yo!
    This could have changed but when t3 was lead of content he stated they got data back on which maps were played more vs others (which in theory filters what maps people enjoy). However, I don't think maps should be removed just because a majority of people don't play the map. Sometimes people only enjoy playing on certain maps so it would be rude to remove a map just based on overall popularity rather than the map itself (such as gameplay). I can only see people arguing about map disliking and it causing drama within' the community which is never fun. With all that being said, I'll be giving this a -1 rating.
    Posted Dec 10, 2019
    Wrappingz likes this.
  4. Yes I like it!

    Predictable jokes aside, I'd be fine with this. At the very least, it provides a baseline for gauging community thoughts on maps. I do think there needs to be some sort of way to provide detailed feedback or a link to a place where players could do that via this suggestion (such as: you dislike a map, and you get sent a link in chat to the GI Discord). Otherwise, I don't see why not.
    Posted Dec 10, 2019
    SpitefulNick and Xukuwu like this.
  5. I'm really not too sure about this idea. As @xHypey said, people work really hard on these maps. They need to go through several stages before they can get onto the live network. There is so much more than just building the map that goes into this, so I don't know how well this system would work.

    Instead of a system that prioritizes negativity, what about one that promotes positivity? Players could vote on which maps they like the most similar to how they do in NANO. While, yes, this does not give players the ability to say they do not like the map, it does show which maps are more liked and which are lesser-liked when compared to the other maps of the same game. With the way that the map selecting system currently works, I really do not know how often maps are selected that players do not like, since it seems like the maps that players select are the ones that keep coming back.

    Additionally, if players want to be able to give constructive criticism, there are already ways for that to happen. Places like the CI Discord and the Forums are perfect for feedback and in constructive way, not one that is just bashing the creator with nothing to support it, which I see happening with this system coming into place.
    Posted Dec 10, 2019
    nolawn and Xukuwu like this.
  6. Let's put people's feelings over gameplay, hmmmmmmmmmmmmmm

    People are assuming that a disliked map would instantly have it being removed, when that doesn't have to be the case. If a map is being disliked a fair amount, there is more than likely something wrong with it; why not gather some of these more disliked maps every once and a while, and perhaps filter them through certain game communities to see what exactly may not be a fun part of the map? After gathering feedback from different places (forums, GI disc, etc.), the build team (see below) could try and fix it up a bit. This would help bring the poorer gameplay maps up to standard without having to remove any at all.

    Not too sure how keen build team would be on doing this, but I think it may be a nice change-up every now and then, rather than releasing new maps.
    Posted Dec 10, 2019
    Mitchy, Wiz_Techno, mab8400 and 11 others like this.
  7. Hello there!

    From how I currently see it, this idea wouldn't work out very well in the long run.

    Players may dislike a certain map, yes, but in most cases someone likes each map, so to remove/change a map based off a system like this doesn't seem very effective. Yes, yes, I know the saying "You can't make everyone happy", but I believe there are better ways to go about getting feedback about a map than a voting system in-game.

    Lets say this is implemented; Player1 really cares about which maps they believe to be good or not, so they make a vote showing that they aren't very fond with the map. However, Player67 and Player68 are both in a party and generally don't mind which map they play, so when this voting system pops up, they just down-vote random maps because it's fun! What I'm getting at here is that this system wouldn't provide us accurate data because not all the votes would be serious votes.

    Lastly, the builders work very hard on maps, and to add a system that literally downgrades their maps compared to others without any constructive criticism seems harsh. Instead, perhaps a feedback form could be made here on the forums where you put the Map title and then below that give feedback on the map. This form would only be viewable by Build Team members and this way at least the builders would know why the player isn't loving their map.

    I see where you're coming from with this idea and it does make sense to want to get feedback from the community about maps, but I just don't think this would be the best approach to doing it. For these reasons it will have to be a -1 from me.

    Have a good one! :)
    Posted Dec 10, 2019
  8. Unlike everyone else above, I see promise in this idea, just with a different approach because there is a better way to go about map feedback. While one can argue that popular maps are likely better, those voted less do not have players experiencing game play on it as much so it would be unfair to assume that they do not belong on the server just from a handful of games. This is actually a feature on the other server and they let you rate maps on a scale of 1 to 5. I have never voted anything below a 3 on that server before but that is quite useful for getting an idea of which maps need improvement. On Mineplex, we can implement something similar where if you vote on the worse half, you need to fill out a form on the forums about how it can be improved, criticism must be constructive. Others may say you can provide your take on the map in the Discords but there are far less users there, leading to less viewing it. At the end of each week, all votes will be compiled and reviewed by the Map Testing and Build team. If the average is on the worse half, feedback will be taken into consideration and the said problems will be tested.


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    Posted Dec 10, 2019
  9. Great idea. From a gameplay point of view, this would help improve the quality of gameplay and allow MTT and the Build Team to review some of their maps to make sure gameplay is up to their standard. I think instead of a dislike button, it should just be rating it, choosing between if you liked it, had no feelings, or didn't like it. This doesn't force players to choose and would work even better if you had the option to disable it in /prefs. I'll also be addressing some of the counterpoints to this argument.
    It's not harsh. When submitting a map, Map Submissions reviews it for gameplay and aesthetics and then we on Map Testing test it for gameplay quality and look for some exploits as well. If it's a map for a game as such SSM, Minestrike, or Survival Games, it goes through GI as well to receive approval, so it's a long process (at least for these games) and pretty much all of the maps passed today are fine.

    For what you're saying, you think Builders will get sad because their hard work gets removed, and I get that. But like stated before, just because the map isn't liked, doesn't mean it's going to get removed. If it does, it'll most likely get reworked into the map the community wants to see it as, so this isn't a valid point.
    What you're saying also isn't accurate. In this example, you're saying a majority of players won't seriously use this feature, but in reality, you'll see more serious votes since a majority of Mineplex's playerbase that are into giving feedback will give a serious answer. Sure, there might be a few out there that don't, but as time passes, it becomes clear if a map is liked or not.
    I'm sorry, but Mineplex is a company in the real world. Companies must take into account of all opinions, yes. But, the majority should be heard in cases like this. Think of the changes when Alex pressed delete on the EU servers. That upsetted a lot of people, especially the ones in EU that used it for competitive leagues. Not 100% of people will agree with every decision, so removing a map because it has bad gameplay will make a few individuals upset, but a majority will be pleased with the changes/removal.
    We kinda already get this from the (private) data on which maps are picked the most for certain games. While we aren't able to view it, Mineplex can and could potentially use it to see which games are the best. However, positive feedback doesn't really do much. Saying "I like this map it looks cool!" doesn't do anything but make whoever made it happy. We sometimes need something as simple as "I don't like it" so we can look back into the map for any changes that could be made to make it better.
    This isn't really bashing the creator, it's just letting us (MTT and BT) know that there's something wrong with the map and it needs to be looked into. Not everyone wants to be on Discord or on the forums, so a simple "I don't like it" is better than nothing, and as someone on MTT, I think this feature would help out a lot in making sure maps are kept to a higher quality.

    So yeah, to anyone else who thinks it would be sinning to remove a map because it isn't popular, I just want to reiterate that this isn't to remove unpopular, it's to put maps under our radar to make sure they're high quality. Maps are always removed, and it's been happening for a long time, so this wouldn't really change the number of maps removed by a lot, but just give more fixes for MI and the author.
    Posted Dec 10, 2019
    Mitchy, Im_Ken, nolawn and 8 others like this.
  10. I could've worded the section of my thread that you quoted for this response better, but just thought I'd clarify because you took it a bit out of context by cutting off the other part. I understand the concept of majority for a company perspective, I was just trying to say this wasn't the best way to go about it in my opinion. Looking back on my thread now, I would probably not have included the "but in most cases someone likes each map, so to remove/change a map based off a system like this doesn't seem very effective" part, as it isn't really relevant.
    Posted Dec 10, 2019
  11. Any feedback or indicator is helpful, so having feedback in-game, on the forums, and on Discord all helps.
    Taking your other part of the quote, it's not really taking it out of context. This feedback system wouldn't be problematic since it's additional help for MTT and BT to see what needs to be changed with certain maps.
    Posted Dec 10, 2019
  12. The only reason I disagree is because plebian Community members will downvote based solely that it's not the map they like. But I would like to test it out in some way.
    Please give a stronger reason why you disagree other than "Community drama". And I don't see how it's rude. Like Adam said, it's just to gauge how much the Community dislikes one map. I'm iffy on the idea, but at least we can test it somewhat.
    --- Post updated ---
    This isn't about being negative or positive towards a map, we can have a system that gauges positive votes from the community, but I think it would work less effectively than negative votes.
    You're being overly melodramatic. No kid is going to give up their career because one of their maps isn't liked. Forums is a horrible way to gauge feedback as everyone is positive to follow the forum rules. GI discord is a good route but still not a big way to get true feedback. And I do not see how in any way this is bashing the creator, it's more of way to say that this map needs a bit of work.
    Posted Dec 10, 2019
    Xukuwu and Worpp like this.
  13. I personally don't think this is really needed at all.

    Right now, the Build Team already does review live maps. First, we have our incredible Map Testing Team review all of the maps before they go live. Most of the users in this community subteam (mineplex.com/buildtester if you want to apply) have a lot of experience with competitive play in a variety of gamemodes. Additionally, more intensive gamemodes are tested by the GI community as well. Testing isn't perfect, but we catch a lot of issues before the map goes live.

    Additionally, our Map Issues team is constantly taking feedback on all of the live maps. We actively receive feedback from a wide variety of venues (bug reports, GI discord, MTT discord, in-game users, PMs, etc.) and take everything we receive into consideration. From this feedback we will make map changes, overhauls, or remove the map altogether if absolutely necessary.

    Additionally, every few months the Build Leads usually do what we call a "map purge". This is where gamemodes that have a high excess of maps (usually Bridges, Micro Battles, etc) will get quality reviews for both gameplay and aesthetics choices. Maps will be removed if they don't meet the standard expected on the server.

    As of right now, I don't think that we need to implement a full on dislike button into the server. First off, this would have to appear at the end of the game match since it wouldn't be right to judge a map before the game. While this option might not be super hard to implement, the end of the gamemode is usually designated to reading through your rewards and selecting another gamemode, so I don't think it'd fit well. Additionally, the map voting feature already tells us which maps have the lowest voting frequency, so this would sort of be a repetitive feature.

    I thoroughly believe that the community does not need to know the exact stats "to prove maps are disliked by the community." We here your feedback and we listen to it. If you checkout this document, you can see all the live maps that we have removed. Over 100 maps in 2019 were either removed or overhauled completely. That does not include over 800 individual map fixes done in 2019 (find that here).

    So if you have maps in mind that you think have very bad gameplay, please let us know. We listen and take the information we receive seriously. You can submit a bug report (label it as a "Map Exploit"), shoot our Map Issues Map Lead a PM (@joshuart ) or anyone else who is on the Map Issues team (including myself).

    So long story short, no, I don't think this feature would be super useful or necessary. I won't say that the team is perfect at reading the communities feedback, but I would say that additional stats that tell us the most disliked maps won't significantly improve the content.

    If you have questions on our process or want to report specific maps feel free to shoot me a PM :)
    Posted Dec 10, 2019
    Im_Ken, Worpp, Xukuwu and 2 others like this.
  14. Hello,

    This is an interesting idea to be able to dislike maps, I suggest going to a builder to suggest your improvements on the map to help make it better for other players.

    I don't really feel like this is needed but could be a cool feature to have +0.

    Happy suggesting,
    Posted Dec 10, 2019
  15. Mixed feelings about the idea.
    I actually disagree with some of the above responses. I feel like that if the majority of people do not like a certain map in a game, it should be removed. There may be a handful of people that enjoy that map specifically, but overall the game would be less appealing if a map was kept that most people didn’t enjoy. I mean if we had a game that 98/100 hated and 2/100 loved it, I don’t think it would be worth spending time on it. It would be better to remove it.

    On the other hand, MTT does a great job ensuring that all of the maps are playable and meet standards. I feel as though feedback on maps can easily be provided on the forums or directly to the build team. Pushing a dislike button doesn’t really provide much feedback about the quality of the map.

    I like what @HeyItsAdam said. Maybe we don’t need to solely focus on the negatives. It would be better to encourage people to give their own feedback on the maps they don’t like as much, rather than just push a button to show they don’t like a certain map.
    Posted Dec 11, 2019
    SpitefulNick and Vocaloiid like this.
  16. I would like to bring some new insight into this situation. First of all, like all the other members are saying, MTT tests maps intensively to ensure the quality of them. I can verify this as a member of MTT. Secondly, I think that a lot of what makes up someone’s opinion on a map is the aesthetics. Aesthetics is not objective, rather subjective, meaning that it’s opinion based.’There may be only one or two people that still like a map because of its aesthetics, and everyone else dislikes it, but that still doesn’t mean the map is objectively bad. It just means it’s not visually appealing to some players. If we start removing maps that are downvoted because their visuals are disliked by some people, we won’t have any maps. Some people have a certain style they prefer, and others have different styles. You have to take this into account when discussing the removal of maps because if you don’t every map will end up getting removed at some point.

    But like I said earlier, the process maps go through to get accepted and used in gameplay is too much to let a simple aesthetics preferences make or break it in my opinion. I just feel like maps shouldn’t be rated purely on aesthetics and other things should be the deciding factor of whether maps are “good” or “bad,” which luckily we already have with MTT.

    Also, I see this being a feature most people ignore. Features like these are usually afterthoughts after the game and generally disregarded because it takes time and is seen as ineffective by some players.’I personally forget to do things like voting for maps or saying gg after games, and I know others have similar problems. All I’m saying is I don’t think if this future were added it would be utilized to its full potential.

    I dislike this idea and don’t think it would be effective at gauging the “goodness” of maps.’I don’t think it should be added, and if people have issues with a map they should bring it up with the Build Team or on the forums.
    Posted Dec 11, 2019
    Klobby and Wrappingz like this.
  17. After reading all of the replies, I think I should mention that maps that get a very bad rating aren't going to be instantly removed from the server, it's only going to serve as a statistic. Those statistics will be used as a reason to change a map or potential removal if change is not possible.

    There are maps that even went through map testing that are still bad in terms of gameplay. Personally, I don't think anyone should be worried or disliking a map because it looks bad, the build team always pumps out quality builds (the Elsa in the lobby right now is kind of insane, I like it a lot). A lot of us are worried about the actual "playability" of a map. I'm currently a part of Smash GI, and we've seen quite a bit of maps that go live that aren't great gameplay wise. Once again, good aesthetic, bad gameplay. There's only so much a team of 30 can catch alone, and the playerbase can help express their opinions on maps more accurately is we were to record statistics of the votes in addition to disliking maps as well.

    I'm also a strong believer in working with the community, so I think disliking maps will help gauge how people feel about maps and improve them faster.

    quick history of me: been on MTT for the first 6 months of the team being created
    OP OP
    OP OP Posted Dec 11, 2019
    Mitchy, Jaek, nolawn and 2 others like this.
  18. If the Smash GI has complaints about maps they should be getting in touch with someone on the Map Issues team. Also, Smash GI gets to help test maps, so if you have concerns about the SSM gamemode you should be making an effort to attend those testings when they happen. In the last 3 months we have only had two SSM map issues reported and fixed, meaning that if there are issues they are not being reported to us. And this goes for all gamemodes, so please report these issues. There is no justification to implement something like this when the current map issue reporting systems aren't even being used.

    Players can already express their opinions on maps by using the voting feature as-is right now. By not voting for a map you are doing the equivalent of disliking it.
    Posted Dec 11, 2019
    Xukuwu, Im_Ken, Worpp and 1 other person like this.
  19. But are these "disliked" maps being dealt with, or are they just being kept then?
    Posted Dec 11, 2019
  20. Other than removing them, no. There have been issues reported to me which have improved the quality of some maps and caused their ratings to improve. However, that doesn’t happen as often as I’d like.

    Suggestions are always welcome and I keep a close eye on the MTT map issues channel, almost every GI game channel, as well as the forums to see what information I can gather in order to improve the quality of maps that you guys see and play on each day.
    Posted Dec 11, 2019
    Tea, Xukuwu, Jaek and 1 other person like this.

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