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How Sin actually can be nerfed/balanced

Discussion in 'Clans' started by Ninja/Gekyume, Sep 16, 2019.

  1. I know this is a common subject but I need to weigh in my opinion as my friends and I have been playing since beta and know a lot about the ins and outs of clans. Sin is too powerful, not only because of bugged abilities and glitches, but because of its advantage of mobility on clans. Here are my suggestions (Some are obvious, some are more creative)

    1. Fix illusion (Illu hitting) plain and simple. Also reduce the invisibility time after 1st hit (illu tapping)
    2. Fix or preferably replace smoke bomb. There is no good reason why smoke bomb should allow the player to get 2-3 free hits while invisible.
    3. Fix flash glitch (1 flash charge max when equipping class)
    4. Fix backstab hitbox and hit detection. Moving targets cause backstab to be very finicky and its hitbox gets really out of wack. Fixes for backstab should be geared towards nerfing it.
    5. Fix evade. Evade hit detection was ridiculous back in s1-s2, and now it is a total joke. Evade is extremely underpowered and needs a fair, tolerable buff. A suggestion would be to change the way the mechanic works all together or to lower the cooldown to about 12 seconds
    6. Make assassin's bow do 5 damage on a fully charged shot and a minimal amount (1-3) on lower charged shots. This will help mitigate bowspam and fix assassin's advantage over brute and mage
    7. Increase water bottle cooldown to 7-8 seconds. This will reduce water bottle spamming
    8. Fix Flash 5 glitch where you need to be holding your axe to get your 6th charge
    9. Fix hit detection with movement abilities (The amount of time before you can hit someone after flashing or blinking) It is well too often that sins hit you mid-flash, often accidentally

    Overall changes/fixes:
    - Reset maps much more often (3 months maximum)
    - Make allying with hackers, harboring hackers, or illu hitting have a zero-tolerance rule. Illu hitting should be a 60 day blacklist and then a perm ban.
    - Deal with staff team corruption and scummy players getting away with offenses because of stupid staff limitations, such as the fact that a staff member cant just /ban someone, they need "proof". *Cough* gasolines cough* borderr cough*
    - Fix leaderboards. Leaderboards are beyond broken. My clan has been the richest and most dominant for 120 days on clans 7 and we have never gotten above 5th place. Despite have countless completed raids, leggies, and kills. Its way too common to see a hacker clan created 5 hours prior be 1st in leaderboards. Or even a clan that just ran out of energy be at the top. I think staff know about this problem, just restating it
    - Allocate more staff and dev time to clans. No one cares about champions anymore, im sorry. The glory days of minigames on mineplex are over. It is time to promote clans as Mineplex's real selling point for java mc. Effectively make clans like HCF servers
    - Very important- Make a teamspeak where you can easily get moved by staff and report hackers. (Or discord, doesnt really matter). Again, following the model of HCF servers.

    Theres probably SO much more i've forgotten. I purposefully didnt include obvious glitches such as ladder glitching, hub villager, spawn jumping, illu not working, class mixing, infinite points, mixed armor, etc.

    TL;DR : There's a lot wrong with clans. On behalf of the existing and former community, we have faith for the gamemode. The best thing we would like to see would be shutdown and total revamp. Even if this took months, it would be worth it.
    P.s. the lag kinda sucks too lmfao
    Posted Sep 16, 2019
    xOeuf likes this.
  2. sigh

    1) "fix illusion glitching" I think they've seen this by now
    2) removing it is the safest decision
    3) this is not a glitch
    4) the hitbox is fine imo, it's just terrible at times, best nerf would be to decrease damage from non backstab hits
    5) Evade is fine I have no idea what you're talking about, it is really good, it just gets crushed by server lag
    6) Dude you know that this is LITERALLY the exact same damage that assassin does with bow currently right??
    7) Not needed, rather see a drinking time warm-up instead.
    8) this is so unneeded, you'll always get the charge anyway
    9) elaborate, flash hitting is a technique
    1) this was their goal
    2) it's not determined by staff, it's determined by the severity, and I'm sorry but glitching is not a higher severity than hacking.
    3)Seriously? If a staff member was able to ban because of a hunch, that would cause a hell of a lot of false bans. Not banning when they don't have enough evidence is far from corruption fyi.
    4) not too sure about this
    So nobody cares about champions? So what is the CCL community doing then? Clans is literally not even the most popular game on Mineplex long term, it would be very stupid if they got rid of the rest of the network for it. While there is 60 players on clans, what are the 2-3 thousand other people doing?

    For real. Is it everyone or just you? I see where you are going with some of these ideas, but also at the same time I really do not agree with any of them.
    Posted Sep 16, 2019
    Vraz, Bossitiveplays and Veans like this.
  3. Hey!

    Wow, you just managed to put my thoughts into words. Completely agree with all of the above but would also like to add that a 60 day blacklist for a first time offence for a glitch and then a perm ban? That's quite extreme, perhaps at least give a warning first and then build the punishments up cause you don't really want to go from nothing to extreme is over the top. Sure you might say it gives incentive to stop illu glitching but what if they don't know about the rule. Also you can't really control if you're on a hackers team or not but I'm guessing you're talking about clans. What if you don't know that person is hacking? It just seems a bit unfair to be.

    Best regards,

    Posted Sep 16, 2019
    Xion likes this.
  4. With all due respect, I think you are wrong about some things. Given, this is my opinion, but it is not only me who believes these things. Most og players or pretty much anyone who joined before season 2 will agree on most of these. Im sorry for disregarding the "champions community" but I think there isn't really such thing as a active community with an average of 20 people, generally randoms, playing during the day.

    - The most important thing for balancing is to balance Sin abilities with eachother.
    Flash, Blink, Leap are fairly balanced
    Combo, Backstab, Viper, are fairly balanced (given that the opponent uses smoke bomb. Shocking strikes is undeniably underpowered because of the lack of use of Recall
    The arrow abilities are extremely balanced and fair, especially with the heavy use of water bottles

    - Evade is not fair. Evade is shadowed by illusion in almost all aspects of clans pvp. The hit detection after evade makes it very unfun for both parties and largely luck-based. This is also common with backstab, an ability that is very much luck-based.
    I don't think any existing clans players would support keeping evade. Its a toxic ability with a terrible history and tilt-enducing gameplay. The only ones that might support keeping it would be those who generally played Champions more than Clans. (Imo, not real clans players)

    - If you are right about the flash thing not being a glitch, okay, I still think that's a poor choice on the dev team
    -Leaderboards are beyond broken. Maybe you do not have much experience with checking leaderboards, but I can assure you it is not based on criteria that it should be and the algorithms are screwed up.
    - Staff members are meant to be independent and reliable. There have been countless examples of staff not banning someone after they see illu hitting or bhopping or flying. Any level of staff should be able to insta-ban. To mitigate false bans, as I already stated, there should be a teamspeak to easily appeal your ban in hours, also to report cheaters and to get your stuff rolled back (on hardcore)
    OP OP
    OP OP Posted Sep 16, 2019
  5. what if they don't know about the rule
    This is not a valid excuse. "I didn't know hacking was not allowed, please don't ban me!" is what I thought of when I read that. It appears to me you don't play clans often, which is fine, but illusion glitching intentionally deserves to be a punishable offense regardless.
    I'm from Alpha/Beta, and I was insanely active during S2.
    Im sorry for disregarding the "champions community" but I think there isn't really such thing as a active community with an average of 20 people, generally randoms, playing during the day.

    Seems to me like you don't play Champions at all, most of the times when I play it is double the amount you are suggesting it to be. Yet again, you chose not to think of the competitive CCL community as well. Point lost for not reading my short statements I posted prior.

    By randoms, do you literally just mean people that do not play clans??

    Partially agree, the most important thing for balancing Assassin is to make sure that it has good chemistry with the other kits. Imagine if all the assassin abilities were very overpowered. They'd still be balanced with each other, but not balanced with the rest of the game.

    Alright, so it seems to me like you do not know how to use evade well/ have not actively used evade since the patch. Well, unluckily for you, I'm an evade main, so...
    Evade is fair. Illusion, when glitched, is not. Otherwise, it's fair. But why? Simply using Illusion when they evade completely counters the skill! No, that's only if you use it in a predictable way. If you need evade tips literally hmu [Xion#1082]
    also - Hit detection for evade is fine now, which is another thing that gives me the hint that you haven't used it. Point lost. Backstab is not luck based either, unless you mean when it is hit from the side, which was intentional. Before this buff, sometimes you could hit from the back with backstab and it would not activate. This simply fixed it.

    As for people not supporting evade being the new meta.. well you're wrong. Literally simple as that. (https://imgur.com/a/juE1sUd)
    This was taken from a poll made in the Discord with the most clans players [around 600 total], so I'm not sure what else to say, but you're incorrect.
    Point lost. Developer team does not choose what they develop, that is up mainly to the Game Insights Team and Clans Management for (clans related) changes.

    There are many things that effect the leaderboard, but I'm pretty sure it all comes down to each individual player's points in your clan.

    - Staff members are meant to be independent and reliable. There have been countless examples of staff not banning someone after they see illu hitting or bhopping or flying. Any level of staff should be able to insta-ban. To mitigate false bans, as I already stated, there should be a teamspeak to easily appeal your ban in hours, also to report cheaters and to get your stuff rolled back (on hardcore)
    This really concerns me.

    Yes, staff members are meant to be reliable, (not independent, sub teams are there for a reason) but it does not mean they can't make mistakes. At the end of the day, all Trainees to Sr. Mods are volunteer positions that are not paid, and their main focus is to assist and provide excellent customer service.
    As for staff seeing something and not banning, how can you be sure they saw it? They're in vanish, and they are busy people. They may have gotten another request at the same time, may have been in the wrong place (creates insufficient evidence), or they might not even have enough evidence to punish.
    "there should be a teamspeak to easily appeal your ban in hours" And for the people that do not have teamspeak? They'll just stay banned then? And what exactly does teamspeak do to prove anything? Mineplex does not and will not screenshare for a multitude of reasons.
    "also to report cheaters and to get your stuff rolled back (on hardcore)" They will not roll things back unless it's a special occasion, like when the clan Onmacht got falsely disbanded. As for reporting cheaters, you can DM the staff that accept those DMs on discord, it's safe to say they will not make a teamspeak for reporting hackers, as they took down Flaym's StaffRequest discord.

    Posted Sep 16, 2019
    Vraz, Bossitiveplays and Echo ^-^ like this.
  6. Hi,

    Yeah sorry I probably should've been clearer with that. What I meant was that a 60 day ban as a first offence would cause a lot of complaints towards the staff team. As for me talking about them not knowing about if changes were put in place, it could ruin clans easily. Because illu glitching is now so common think about the number of clans that coul end up being abandoned. I was thinking perhaps like as it is with mutes give warnings for the first week or 2 the system would be implemented. I know it would be a big ask but perhaps the staff team could keep track or certain players that have been warned and follow up if the offence is repeated. Also, you were partly right about not playing clans. I used to be more active in season 2 and 3 but kinda gave up on it and have been playing it on and off so I do see the issues that are there. Sorry for being unclear earlier.

    Posted Sep 16, 2019
    Xion likes this.
  7. Yes, evade I believe is now perfect, but due to it being crushed by server lag (Mainly clans) it can be very ineffective in fights.
    --- Post updated ---
    For starters, leaderboards weren't very necessary.
    Secondly, it's so obvious what staff need to do in clan servers but why they do it? Clans is dead. Season 6 got overrun by hackers again and everyone is fed up. I loved clans but quit because of this reason. Either way, due to the lack of clans players there's no reason to "focus" on updating it. Typically, people work on the things that are most popular, like Cake Wars.
    Posted Sep 16, 2019
    Xion likes this.
  8. Mineplex most likely will keep clans alive for as long as possible, simply because it is very profitable. The way clans works allow for Mineplex to sell pay-to-win items.
    Posted Sep 16, 2019
  9. p2w doesn't exist in a game where you can't win
    Posted Sep 16, 2019
  10. I guess it's technically pay-to-have-an-unfair-advantage but that doesn't have quite the ring to it.
    Posted Sep 16, 2019
    Xion likes this.
  11. Disagree, the hitbox is extremely random and luck based. It works on the side too which should not be a thing. It also does way too much damage. I think they should revert the damage to 11 which is fair and balanced imo as this would require an extra backstab to kill most kits other than sin.
    Personally I feel like evade has too many invul frames. Sometimes I wait a second or two and hit and evade still works. Maybe evade can have a small cooldown between successful evades? Or just decrease the amount of invul frames.
    Posted Sep 16, 2019
  12. Backstab hitbox is wonky I can agree, and damage could possibly be reduced (rather have normal damage with backstab reduced than just the backstab)

    As for evade frames, those are perfect, just train yourself to wait that .2 seconds longer instead of nerfing a balanced skill. Giving evade a cooldown in between use makes the ability kinda worthless unless they bring the slight hit dection thing back, which honestly nobody wants
    *faint Chritah rap in the background*
    Posted Sep 16, 2019
    Vraz and jjzdragon like this.
  13. From experience when I used to cheat (I’m legit now) backstab was even more broken when you had the hitboxes hack. If you don’t know what hitboxes are it increases the hitbox of a player so you can hit a player without looking at them. With the already broken backstab hitbox, this made it that you could hit backstabs from more unusual angles. The community and I can agree with you that the backstab hitbox is a luck base. I’ve had assassin circle strafe fights with people and I win because I get the backstabs and they don't
    Posted Sep 17, 2019
    Xion, jjzdragon and GAM like this.
  14. Hi! Remembered more things worth mentioning.
    1. Silencing arrow incorrectly labeled as 3 seconds. I ran some tests and it seems to be 3.8 seconds. Ever wondered why it feels like you've been silenced for EVER
    2. Illusion sometimes not working. You block your sword and, likely somewhat due to server lag, it doesnt process
    3. Illusion is killable by teammates. Clearly no logical reason behind this, as with the maul and scepter interacting with teammates, it shouldn't exist
    OP OP
    OP OP Posted Sep 17, 2019
  15. 1. I'll test it myself because for me the new silence is shorter since old silence 1 was 4 seconds and the new silence is only 3 seconds
    2. Yeah, I've encountered this multiple times, it also happens to evade too.
    3. Scepter shouldn't interact with teammates because the blindness can be annoying, but maul affecting teammates should stay because if your clanmate is in a short moat you can maul them out. For illusion being killable by teammates, this doesn't seem to mind that much people.
    Posted Sep 17, 2019
    Xion likes this.

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