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I feel like Wolf and Creeper give the player an unfair advantage.

Discussion in 'Super Smash Mobs' started by Pizzazilla, Nov 4, 2018.

?

Do you think Wolf or Creeper needs a nerf?

  1. Both

    46.3%
  2. Just Creeper

    16.3%
  3. Just Wolf

    25.0%
  4. Neither

    12.5%
  1. Jam
    x

    Why is this man not SmashGI ?!?!
     
    Posted Nov 21, 2018
    Mitchy, SpitefulNick and Pizzazilla like this.
  2. Everyone favorites their kit, and if you ask Creeper users they'll say its good, same as witylh woolf. But I think that creeper could see some regeneration nerfs, its kinda op.
     
    Posted Nov 21, 2018
  3. It really isn't. We have hardly any armor. That's why we have high regeneration
     
    Posted Nov 21, 2018
  4. I would say nerf creeper and wolf both. Wolf definitely. Take out the triple space spam from wolve's its honestly annoying. Creeper they need to nerf the recharge time on the explosion and Sulphur bomb.
     
    Posted Nov 22, 2018
    Johnny Welamton and SpitefulNick like this.
  5. Maybe the sulphur bomb cooldown (by very slightly) but not the explosion. The explosion is quite useless when you're playing projectile kits. Creeper is just so vulnerable. That's why I tell people that the way to beat me is to maintain their distance. Get too close and its GG.
     
    Posted Nov 23, 2018
  6. I do not think sulfur bomb should be nerfed. Only sometimes does it actually do a good amount of knockback, and honestly I think it could be buffed with a bigger hitbox. Sometimes shots that VERY CLEARLY hit the enemy, or maybe even when they were holding still, did no damage or knockback to the enemy.
     
    Posted Nov 23, 2018
  7. Coming from the perspective of someone who doesn't play this game a lot of feel like I see wolf and creeper winning more fights. There's one other kit as well but I can't think of the name at the moment.
     
    Posted Nov 23, 2018
  8. I would like to go on to say thank you for the responses, I've read them all. I still stick by my argument on wolf, its cub tackle and ravage combined gives the player a very large unfair advantage. Creeper, I think, should either lose the regen or the knock back, other than that maybe a little tweak to lightning shield. I am still a bit bothered that I have made multiple posts over the years about these kits and they still have gotten no replies from any staff. I made this post about a month ago and it clearly has become somewhat popular, I have seen multiple other players bring up the same or similar complaints, yet the I have seen no response from anyone who can give me any real information.
     
    OP OP
    OP OP Posted Dec 1, 2018,
    Last edited Dec 1, 2018
    SpitefulNick likes this.
  9. Jam
    x

    Ok I'll step up and answer this for you. To get things clear firstly both kits, have abusable advanatages that at some levels can seem unfair. Wolf more so than Creeper but keep in mind, not everyone has a disliking to these and nor do some people lose to these kits.

    Firstly, Wolf is stupidly good. Without a shadow of a doubt. It has directed jump one of the most abusable forms of priority in this game, a really good stun and a high damage lethal passive that allows it to rip apart most enemies. The ideology behind wolf is that it's predominant focus is close melee combos. It's that simple and easy. Because the meta game so closely follows melee combos and more so high damage combos now days rather than ability spamming or zoning, wolf dominates pubs and the comp meta. It's even got the power to challenge and beat Spider, argubly the best kit at the moment.

    Balancing wolf itself isn't a challenge. It's a simple class with a simple design. It has extremely abusable advanatages, ones that even invalidate it's hard counters because it's so good. The damage upfront it can do and the combo it can pull off with Wolf Strike is the predominant issue. Simply lowering the amount of bonus damage you get from ravage (1 > 0.75) is a simple fix that requires wolf's to hit on an average 1-2 times more on most enemies. Lowering the damage on Wolf Strike by [X] to further decrease the damage wolf can deal whilst not crushing it's recovery or combo potential. And finally adding energy on DoubleJumps. (By meleeing opponents you get portions of your energy back which not only compliments the playstyle but also encourages close combat and discourages running).

    On the other hand creeper is much harder. Now I've been playing creeper for a long time and I've really figured out a lot of the ins and outs of the matchup and one of the biggest things about creeper is it's kB. It's a high kB class, it utilises kB in its core entirity to deal with a lot of opponents and it's synergy around its neutral and dealing with certain kits is the kB. At the moment it's Sulphur Bomb and Lightning Shield kB sits at 2.5 or (250% kB). Hitting a shot mid air doubles the number to 500% (which is why sometimes creeper gets absurd kB on its bomb). Generally speaking from 10-5 on 90% of the kits, you will never feel the kickback on bomb. But once you get from 5-1 you really feel the kick and it can be hard to deal and get close to creeper. I agree on the position that it should be lowered to a certain degree, but not to the point that you not only kill creepers neutral but also cut it at the knees as it were. I could ramble for hours on how creeper uses bomb for its spacing, combos, beating certain kits etc but that wouldn't achieve much considering 90% of people don't understand it.

    To achieve a delicate fairness with the nerfs you can possibly lower the SB kB from 250% > 220% (this doesn't ruin counter matchup plays against a lot of kits from 10-5 and also blocks trades still) and Lightning Shield kB from 250% > 210% (reducing the base kB to prevent double up absurd kB from 5-1 hits on LS). Generally speaking the rest of creepers harsh weaknesses are still letting it down. Another general reason why it's so strong is a lot of pubs players just do not know how to deal with bomb and how to not trigger LS and get combos. Generally speaking the players that do don't really struggle with creeper and there are a plethora of options to take when dealing with creeper. (More so than wolf which has not too many losing matchups and barely any hard counters).

    I hope this clarified some things for you and have you a better understanding of fairly balancing both kits. Most of this stuff comes from and is agreed upon by SmashGI anyways so if you still have questions feel free to come on there and talk. :ok_hand:
     
    Posted Dec 1, 2018
    Vocaloiid, _JPXFRD_ and SpitefulNick like this.
  10. If wolf deserves a nerf then spider also deserves! Spider is just Wolf but with different abilities and it can wall climb.
    --- Post updated ---
    why it says unnapropriate thread/posts? I can't see anything wrong, you just said something very interesting and you really thought about it.
     
    Posted Dec 3, 2018
  11. While I agree spider can be a little annoying, it is no where near as in dire need of correction. I think the spider's hitbox is large enough to have a melee battle, where as wolf the hit box makes the opposite player have an extreme disadvantage due to it's flaws. Cub tackle and spin web, while at first glance may seem the same, are actually very different. Cub tackle recharges twice as fast as spin web, and is forward facing making it much easier to aim. Spider also lacks a ravage ability making it easier and more balanced to combat in most situations, and on top of that I find needler far more tolerable than wolf strike because of the lack of damage. All in all I see where you're coming from, but I don't agree that they should have equal priority.
     
    OP OP
    OP OP Posted Dec 3, 2018
  12. The wolf's hitbox is literally just the bulk right above its front legs and like 1/3-1/4 of the back's length, why mojang made such a skewed hitbox is beyond me
     
    Posted Dec 3, 2018
  13. Do you actually think that an entities hitbox (should be hurtbox) is the shape of the entity? Press F3+B in a game.
     
    Posted Dec 10, 2018
  14. my computer can't do that, not even joking.

    EDIT: also I don't think the hitbox is the same shape as the entity (creeper is the only exception to this) I mean they shoulda made the length of the wolves body the hitbox even if the head isn't part of it.
     
    Posted Dec 11, 2018
  15. EVERY hitbox (aside from the Enderdragon, if I'm not mistaken) in MC is just that: a box. They're always the same depth and width. A wolf isn't less wide and more deep like the model is, nor is an iron golem more wide and less deep as it should logically be. That's why arrows are super easy to hit too; their hitbox is the same width as is the arrow's length (imagine the arrow is a low-but-wide box flying at you).
    Mobs like zombies, creepers, spiders and players do have a pretty matching hitbox since they're simple cubic shapes.

    Like I said the only exception (I know of) is the Enderdragon, which has many different hitboxes for different bodyparts to both match it's shape, and to detect which bodypart is hit to measure how much damage it receives.
     
    Posted Dec 11, 2018
  16. The real issue with wolf is most players don't know how to counter wolf. I've been playing wolf since its release. I've mained it up to the last patch. Wolf can only do well against kits with little range or long cooldowns or not much kb. So kits like wither skeleton (not much escape and long cooldowns), magma cube (long cooldowns), sheep (long cooldowns and little escape), villager (long cooldowns), pig (wolf can easily dodge bounce bacon, also not much recovery), blaze (not much escape), squid (long cooldowns) have difficulty against wolf. I switched from wolf to Spider / Enderman because they have less weaknesses.

    Same is with creeper. Not many people know how to counter it. Creeper has a lot of good matchups at the moment except against ranged kits. Zombie, skeleton, and Enderman are the only super hard matchups for creeper. I've found great success in those kits while fighting creepers.

    Let's also address the issue about saying "Nerf blah blah blah." People will only bring up nerfing a kit they die to the most. You see more people wanting to nerf wolf and creeper but in practice the kits that win the most are Enderman, Spider, and Zombie. You want to nerf the kits you die to the most. Creeper and wolf are both relatively easy to pick up. Spider, Enderman, and Zombie are not so "noob-friendly."

    But in all honesty, I think we should buff other kits rather than nerfing others. We should rework certain abilities on kits to make the kit more viable, not too op and not too weak.

    Thanks for reading,
    Cubic
     
    Posted Dec 11, 2018
    Eroil, hellcqt and Jam like this.
  17. Jam
    x

    Cubic dropping the tru dat facts
     
    Posted Dec 11, 2018
  18. I think people are complaining about this kits because they are awful to fight. Wolf has cub tackle and ravage, and creeper has the knockback and lightning shield. There are other kits that I think need major reworking, such as pig, which in my opinion, is the most broken kit in the game, but I'm not posting about it because most people don't play it.

    I'll say it again, counters don't mean balance, counters mean counters. Maybe one kit is better at fighting another because of its range or damage output, but that does not mean the kit is not in need of reassessment, it just means there is something that can beat it.

    Buffing every kit that is not broken in SSM would be much harder than just nerfing the kits that need nerfing. Kits like Zombie, Magma, Wither, Villager, Sheep, etc. don't all need to be buffed just because someone made poor judgement on a select few kits while they were in their creation. Maybe people don't know how to counter these kits because they have advantages that make it harder to counter than most other kits, such as lightning shield, or 30 block knock back, or maybe quickly recharging explodes. Any of these could be factors.

    I would stop trying to shift blame on to the players for the faultiness in judgement at Mineplex HQ.
     
    OP OP
    OP OP Posted Dec 23, 2018,
    Last edited Dec 23, 2018
  19. I honestly agree with this; Creeper and Wolf give too much for so little - especially Creeper.

    Creeper has an ability which allows it to snipe people. That's completely fine, but the knockback is absolutely in need of nerfing. I can't tell you how many times I've just hit people with the Sulphur Bomb, only to see them helplessly trying to double jump their way back before sending another one right in their face. The only kit which can survive the Sulphur Bomb spam is IMO Blaze. And let's mention the ridiculous damage on it. For such a low cooldown ability, it gives too much. Quite a lot of damage and knockback; that's the only issue I have with it.

    Now let's talk about Wolf. Wolf is a kit which specializes in close combat; it has a tool which stuns you, and a tool which does a lot of damage, and a passive which makes you deal more damage the more you hit a person. What I propose is to lower the passive damage and lower the Iron Shovel ability damage slightly in order to properly to balance it out.
     
    Posted Dec 23, 2018
  20. I’d say wolf definitely needs balancing more so than creeper.

    The only issues with creeper imo are that lightning shield can be activated by cactus and that sulphur bomb does a ridiculous amount of kb. Other than that I think creeper is fine. There are several ranged kits that can counter it.

    Wolf... well wolf needs a complete rework imo.
    The directed jump that allows wolf to spacebar spam for free hits and run away from almost any situation needs to go. The hit box is small and difficult to hit, especially for inexperienced players. Considering that wolf has a combo attack and a move that can pin down enemies combined with the small hit box size means that if a wolf sneaks up on you and tackles, you’re very likely dead.

    Both creeper and wolf need a nerf, but I think creeper isn’t as broken as wolf
     
    Posted Dec 23, 2018
    Mitchy likes this.

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