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In Discussion Make one of the SSM achivement kits a priced kit

Discussion in 'Game Alterations' started by _Golden_Freddy_, Jan 9, 2020.

  1. Players can get good in every kit, yes, but that doesn't make every kit equal. In every game with different characters with widely different abilities and attributes, some will be better and some will be worse, this is the nature of these kinds of games- look at any game with characters with different abilities and etc that is played competitively, you'll almost always see a tier list for that reason.
    The fact that sheep and chicken are sometimes used with a hit and run style (though definitely not always, sheep players often camp a lot and chicken is best used up close so offensive chicken isn't rare) doesn't change how good/bad they are.
    Posted Jan 12, 2020
    leo_thya and SpitefulNick like this.
  2. Hello there!

    I have to disagree with this. Achievement kits are worked for through many hours of work and effort by most players. To give a scenario: Lets say Player3 had just started playing SSM, and he really wants the Sheep kit, but could care less about the Villager kit. Player3 works really hard and plays for many hours and finally he completes all the achievements and earns the Sheep. Then, all of a sudden, the sheep is turned into a purchasable kit, and he is left with Villager as his achievement kit that he worked so hard for, which he doesn't even care for (and vise versa).

    After an achievement kit becomes an achievement kit, I don't think it is really possible or fair to anyone to change the means of getting the kit, because the amount of upset players due to different scenarios are not determinable, so we are better off not risking it.

    Those are my thoughts on this, and because of what I said and reasons others gave I'll be giving this a -1. Have a good day!
    Posted Jan 12, 2020
  3. No words needed from anyone else
    Posted Jan 12, 2020

  4. "Every kit equal", what do you mean by that? Abilities? Advantages? Health? Damage? unbalanced or balanced? Tier lists mean nothing but personal opinions. Just because many or most of the people agree on something doesn't mean it is the same for everyone else.

    "The fact that sheep and chicken are sometimes used with a hit and run style doesn't change how good/bad they are." This part confuses me. You are saying "good and bad" "doesn't make every kit equal" but what specifically you aren't saying. Each kit got its own strategy and its own methods. Just because you see people who play bad or can't really play as these two or more kits, doesn't mean that the kits are BAD. "(though definitely not always, sheep players often camp a lot and chicken is best used up close so the offensive chicken isn't rare) why do you think sheep camps? Maybe because it's terrible for pvp? Chickens that comes up close usually get killed because their armour is absolutely nothing. Chickens are like a cleaning or annoying class, rather than actual combat (unless you are very skilled with it). This can be like a rock paper scissor scenario. One class can defeat another, while the other defeat that class.
    Posted Jan 12, 2020
    yulufi / Sean likes this.
  5. Rock paper scissors except that Chicken loses every single match up.
    Posted Jan 12, 2020
  6. Most of the people who play as chicken yes, a very small portion are actually good with chicken. And besides, chicken is mostly for cleaning and hit and run.
    Posted Jan 12, 2020
  7. Alright, finally had enough time to finish this.
    I've mentioned the term "equal" because that's what you seem to be saying- that since every kit can be played well they're all good and there's no bad kit.
    Tier lists are based on opinion yes, but what I'm pointing out is the fact that they EXIST (even with many people disagreeing about certain things) and that's the result of some characters always being worse/better.

    Let's look at ssb brawl for example, the statement you've said earlier could be said for it too- you can be good in any character in the game; but does that mean Meta Knight is as good as Ganon? Nope, he has better frame data, better abilities, etc and that's why he's basically unanimously agreed upon to be the best in the game.

    In SSM, spider could be considered this game's "Meta Knight", the difference isn't as wide as in brawl but similarly to it almost every experienced player you meet will agree it's the best, or at least one of the best in the game. There are a couple reasons why it's regarded as such-

    1- Direct double jump. Instantly makes you incredibly fast, in a game where stalling is incredibly efficient this is an invaluable tool in both stalling and preventing opponents from stalling. Also a very reliable form of hit priority, and allows you to continue your combos for above and beyond.

    2- Needler. Needler is an amazing combo tool that combines really well with spider's direct double jump, that also deals true damage, and being able to be used to kb cancel. It also has an extremely low cooldown.

    3- Spin web. Spin web is a trapping move with a huge spread. It might be a bit hard to hit someone with it, but it's also much harder to dodge it. It has RNG which can screw the spider over, but it also makes it impossible to predict where all the webs will go and so can be also impossible to avoid sometimes, if you didn't predict the spider is going to use it and jump out of the way in time.

    4- Wall climb. Thanks to wall climb, spider has by far the best recovery in the game, nothing even comes close. Using wall climb spider can recover from falling off the edge in situations where any other kit won't be able to. It also improves spider's already insane mobility, and can be used to completely cancel any form of KB if needed.
    Lastly, if running away and spamming needler wasn't enough, it can also use it to stall out games if it needs to regen, and there's basically nothing the opponent can do on a lot of maps, unless they're also a spider (though even then it can be risky to approach).

    Chicken, on the other hand, can be considered the "Ganondorf" of SSM (well they're basically opposite in term of theme but in the term of how bad they are lol), it's often considered the worst in the game for a couple reasons-

    1- Terrible stats. 5 armor points, 4.5 melee, 200% kb taken. All of those are the worst in the game. It also has an average 0.25 regen, that doesn't compensate for its terrible armor.

    2- Below average abilities that require you to get close in order to get solid hits, which really doesn't go well with chicken's horrible armor. Egg blaster has a few uses, can be used as a tool for gimping, setting up missile and even kb cancelling (though chicken doesn't really need it cause flap), but still doesn't prevent it from being pretty bad, has low range and low damage, I think it can be considered as one of the worst projectiles in the game. Chicken missile is chicken's main source of damage, and can do quite a lot if you manage to consistently hit with it. Problem with the missile is that it's pretty slow when compared to other projectiles (and as such more dodgeable), and if chicken misses it has a pretty long cooldown (compared to other projectiles) other players can use to get in there and deal some solid damage.

    3- Flap is fairly slow. It offers chicken a lot of utility when it comes to dodging, momentum cancelling and all around maneuverability but it's not fast enough to get away from many kits which really makes it tough for chicken to survive.

    To sumb it up, worst armor in the game + abilities which are most effective when used up close + not being able to get away isn't a good combination.

    The fact that you can play those kits with a specific playstyle like hit and run/stall etc... Doesn't change the kits themselves. Even if a player gets good in a kit it doesn't make it any better or worse, it still has the same potential for high level play they're just learning to use that potential.

    "Just because you see people who play bad or can't really play as these two or more kits, doesn't mean that the kits are BAD"
    I've actually encountered quite a few good chickens and sheep recently and one certain chicken main managed to wreck me quite hard, but it still didn't change my mind about the kit, I know it's bad he just was a better player than me and knew how to abuse his tools against my kit correctly.

    Sheep users often camp because the kit has abilities fit for that playstyle, laser to snipe away your enemies andd wool mine too make it difficult to approach, and its melee stats aren't exactly good either so yeah most common playstyles for it are usually camp/ spam and run or a mix of both.
    Chicken as I mentioned previously has tools that are most effective up close as you can't dodge them reliability (unlike when used from afar, as both of them are slow and missile is omega loud so you notice it easily) and allow it to follow up a successful missile hit with another missile quickly.

    "This can be like a rock paper scissor scenario. One class can defeat another, while the other defeat that class"

    Matchups do certainly exist in SSM, but it doesn't work as simply as that, it's not that the game is instantly decided by the kits, you do need to know how to properly play against that kit even if you have a matchup advantage against it, and especially if you don't. Also some kits counter more than they are countered and some kits have more counters than they counter (and there are harder and softer counters based on how good is a kit against another, usually counted between +1 to +4). The tier list is mostly based on that- which kits have the best matchup charts (who has an advantage against most kits).
    As an example let's look at spider, it has a positive matchup against every single kit except Enderman (which is regarded as an equal matchup but isn't exactly fully agreed upon), its tools and ability to stall forever while spamming needler and webs allow it to wait until the other player gets hit by webs and then approach while they're trapped to pretty much invalidate any chances certain kits have, if properly used of course (and of course a bunch of other stuff I've already mentioned, but this is a big one that comes up in matchups, many kits just can't deal with stall spider).
    Posted Jan 13, 2020,
    Last edited Jan 13, 2020
    leo_thya likes this.
  8. SSM has a lot of kits and compared to other games like for example cw with 4 kits the achievement kit ratio is pretty low
    Posted Jan 13, 2020
  9. I'm so tired of the argument that "there is no bad kit". A good player can find success with an underpowered kit if they practice with it enough but they would have greater success using a top tier kit like spider or skeletal horse if the amount of practice put in is the same.
    Posted Jan 13, 2020
    SpitefulNick likes this.
  10. Wow, Opinions exist!

    I am sorry, I have no idea what ssb brawl is and it has nothing to do with SSM.

    Many experienced players agree on many other kits. People who I know that are experienced plays mostly as a villager.

    Direct double jump is a very handy tool, but it comes with its own disadvantages. Its harder for the spider to jump up in the vertical direction, but a good blow from a creeper, or skeleton horse, will send the spider flying through the entire map.

    Needer helps creeper to gain an electrical charge to avoid getting combed. But again, you are just talking about one class and its advantages, doesn't sound fair to other classes, does it?

    ??? I can say the same thing to any class, it's impossible to predict their attacks, too.

    Spider is not the only class that can have the best recovery. Enderman, Sheep, Creeper, Blaze, Snowman, Wither Skeleton, all are very good at recovering from edge falls, too.

    Again, this really depends with which class and on which map you are playing on.

    To sum up what you have said so far. Chicken bad. Spider good. Again, spider can be played by anyone even not being so skilled and still be able to master spider.

    Nice contradiction there. You just said "Even if a player gets good in a kit it doesn't make it any better or worse" meaning no matter how good you are, the chicken is still a terrible class. Now you are saying "I've actually encountered quite a few good chickens recently and one certain chicken main managed to wreck me quite hard" do you not see what you just wrote was completely against your statement. "it still didn't change my mind about the kit" its an opinion, no one actually has to agree or not. "I know it's bad he just was a better player than me and knew how to abuse his tools against my kit correctly" Lol please, the same concept with spider.

    Right off the bat. "Chicken as I mentioned previously has tools that are most effective up close as you can't dodge them reliability" chicken is not the only class that is the "most effective up close" and I won't even bother saying more.

    What are you saying? You just said above "it doesn't matter how good you are and the chicken kit will still be bad" Now you are telling me "you do need to know how to properly play against that kit even if you have a matchup advantage against it, and especially if you don't"

    To stop you right here:

    Blaze is very effective to kill zombie, Zombie is very effective to kill creeper, creeper is very effective to kill Blaze.

    Blaze is very effective to kill sheep, sheep is very effective against a skeleton, a skeleton is very effective against blaze.

    I am talking about the average skilled.

    Ok so, In a nutshell, you just advertised how good the spider is, and how bad the chicken is. And how the spider is a match for every class. To add on. Villager is almost the same as spider, except for climb. It got the same spitting ability from the back and from, got sonic hurr, and super mega speed. Villager is the only class that I think can truly destroy the spider, not some enderman, especially against the skilled spider. I

    If you are going to reply again (which you are) SUPPORT your statements with examples or show some examples and don't contradict them.
    Posted Jan 13, 2020
  11. Champions has several skills unlocked with achievements. 5 to be specific.
    Posted Jan 13, 2020
    leo_thya likes this.
  12. Wrong
    Posted Jan 14, 2020
  13. Wrong
    Posted Jan 14, 2020
  14. That's not the point. Point being, some kits are objectively better than others, and that can be seen across any games that have specialized kits/characters.

    It's not that hard... you just look up and double jump. That's hardly a disadvantage.

    That still doesn't change the fact that needler is a strong ability. Lightning shield activates on all projectiles, and it's not just limited to needler.

    You know that static laser can only go in one line, but spin web shoots webs in a random fashion in a way that you can't possibly predict for sure.

    Sheep literally has the worst recovery as of right now. But that's beside the point; whether or not other kits have good recoveries, it's undeniable that spider has the best recoveries with wall climb. Sure, its effectiveness is sometimes map dependant, it can still produce the same effect in giving an edge over other kits, even if not as frequently as on other maps.

    Yes, anyone can master spider.

    No, he literally said later in his reply, and you even quoted it, that that chicken player was just a better player than him, but that doesn't change the strength of the kit compared to other kits.

    Yes, same concept as spider, but that doesn't prove all kits are equal.

    Your point being? He never said chicken was the only kit that was effective up close and you pointing that out still doesn't prove anything.

    It makes total sense to me. You can try to play around your disadvantage, but that doesn't make them disappear; you'll still have a disadvantage.

    Villager is definitely not the same as spider. Villager does not have 6 damage projectiles that completely immobilize hit players. Spider most definitely does not have sonic hurr, and sonic hurr isn't as effective in getting a combo as needler due to the knockback it deals. And lastly, villager does not have direct double jumps at default. It's on a cooldown and using it gives you a massive stats debuff, unlike spider.
    Posted Jan 14, 2020
    SpitefulNick and Eroil like this.
  15. Literally any games can say the same: TF2, Overwatch, WOW, there will be people still saying some classes are absolute garbage while others are god classes.

    I never knew how to double jump until now, spiders double jump isn't the same as other classes (save wolf and villager).

    Never said its weak, I said it helps to activate.

    Any person can make a random attack either. With the spin web, you can get lucky to capture a person in the web. With sheep, you can get lucky to slightly randomly shoot and hit the person.

    I said, "is not the only best class". Spider is the only class that has wall climb, ok so? You know wither has wither image? Enderman has teleport? Sheep may use wool mine to avoid void death (hard to do). Most of the time if a spider is knocked down, it will be just slightly hanging on the peak's of an island, making it an easy target for anyone.

    The kit is a kit, you can make it LOOK better or worse. Like in minestrike, some people are gods with AWP or NOVA, but it is very hard to be skilled with them, but they are making NOVA and AWP look better as if these guns are very op and strong.

    You know kits have: Different armor. different attacks, different abilities, different cooldowns, different damage, different kb damage, different regen... What exactly you mean by "equal"?

    you pointing that out still doesn't prove anything.

    That's why you play smart and not fall into the disadvantages.

    Villager's jump is not default not spider's either, it's in between. Wow, I wonder what it means to replace something with something. You probably haven't played with villager masters. One villager was able to do sonic Hurr and double combo me leaving me only with half of the full hearts as a zombie. Play as villager as speeder in the change form and see the difference.
    Posted Jan 14, 2020
  16. Guys!
    This isn’t a who has the longest post competition! Just chill out and be civil lol
    Posted Jan 14, 2020,
    Last edited Jan 14, 2020
    _RSTC_ likes this.
  17. The achievements are 10x easier to do than winning with the villager or sheep kit.
    Posted Jan 14, 2020
  18. Debate is like one of the most civil ways to address disagreements possible lol
    Posted Jan 14, 2020
    Fall and leo_thya like this.
  19. If debates are this heated, debates aren’t necessarily civil
    Posted Jan 15, 2020
  20. It's really not heated though... they are just pointing out what they believe to be flawed logic within each other's posts. Aside from perhaps a slightly snarky comment here and there, it's not like they are being rude or "uncivil" in any way.
    Posted Jan 15, 2020
    Fall, leo_thya and _RSTC_ like this.

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