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Remove Besieged

Discussion in 'Block Hunt' started by mab8400, Mar 12, 2021.

  1. This is an unfair map in which hunters cannot realistically or consistently win games. The map is too big with wayy too many buildings, plentiful of "op" spots, and too many exits/places for hiders to escape with little to no effort. Again the map is too big and radar is already disadvantaged for fights. I'm going to be completely honest and say that this is the worst map in terms of gameplay that i've ever played on out of any server or game mode. It is so big and dense that I honestly think it could be sufficient as an SG map lmfao... the map is a total joke. Either fix the hell out of it and remove like half the buildings and tons of exits or just remove it. I am pretty confused at how this was even accepted for having so many structures. Too many buildings is an instant red flag for hunting. I can understand that some maps are more geared towards hiding or hunting, but this is way too far to one side. The entire community already has pretty much came to the conclusion that its the most broken map and it hasn't even been out for a week. This is like the market revamp 2.0 LMFAO ...The map looks fine and the idea behind it is great, but please holy **** bruh get it out

    ??????????
     
    Posted Mar 12, 2021
    Aleeknossv, Jamey, Ian923 and 3 others like this.
  2. Hey there Mab8400!

    First off, I'm sorry that you and other fellow avid Block hunt members are experiencing this (disliking the map). When it comes to Survival games, each map considers different selections. For example, at least 2 villages, bridges, and rivers/lakes. Besieged has houses that look identical to survival games houses, however, it's not as immense as survival game maps. For example, Riverton, Kikoshi islands, and shattered kingdom all consist of spawns (all map consist of spawns, lol), bridges, lakes/rivers, and more, so you would have to put up a battle if you want this specific map fixed/removed. I get your frustration and cons in regards to this specific map.

    Now, I'm not quite sure how this system runs, however, I do know that if you contact build lead members here and/or Dutty specifically, they can look further into your cons regarding Beseiged itself. Again, I'm not too sure how this system works, however, I have the just of it, in other words, I know a portion of the process. You can always make suggestions in the Mineplex discord server #java-suggestions.

    Have a great rest of your day/night, cheers!
    -Justin
     
    Posted Mar 12, 2021
    Ryan9116 and Jtj like this.
  3. i do not think what you just said is understandable on any level man
     
    Posted Mar 12, 2021
    EpicEnderDragon1, 230V, fxnki and 6 others like this.
  4. While I agree that it is currently unbalanced, some changes are being made and will hopefully be pushed soon. The slum area will be cut in half, a building will be removed, and some more blockpiles will be added for the randoms to hide in.

    It's not a terrible map to hunt on, nowhere near as difficult as the new market, possibly not as difficult as nakoji either. New metas will settle out and make hunting sweats a bit easier, but I do agree that there are too many intentional spots.
     
    Posted Mar 12, 2021
  5. The initial releases of maps have always been very heavily Hider-sided because it is quicker for Hiders to learn where to go than it is for Hunters to learn where to look. I do agree that the map is too biased at the moment, the first few days showed that, but it is nowhere near as bad as you have stated. Jaek, NathanDoesHC, frp, and other hunters are able to Hunt on the map well enough to show that it is not a lost cause.

    As a comparison, I'd like you to look at Pirate Island. Back in 2017, this map was considered obnoxiously good for Hiders (essentially, a free win). Over time, Hunters better learned how to move across the map in more efficient ways, gradually bringing in its balance to where it is today (slightly Hider-sided, but fun for both teams). Every map follows a cycle where it is too easy for one team at first, then moves closer to balanced over time. For the building comment, the # of (non-slum) buildings on Besieged is comparable to other maps, though they are slightly larger.

    The main issue with Besieged at the moment isn't where sweat players go. Once you know the spots they use, they are very easy to kill, even despite the map's size (which is slightly less than that of cookie town based on area). It is currently easier to kill a lobby of sweats than a lobby of randoms. The primary issue is that the randoms aren't very predictable yet. Over time, as Hunters learn where randoms go, the map will slowly move toward a more central balance.

    The map will be receiving changes, and I am already working on those changes based on how I see players move around the map. Certain routes are getting closed off, and certain spots are getting made easier to see. The slums area is going to be roughly cut in half has Jaek has stated. There will be more obvious spots geared toward new players as well, making them more predictable.

    I will admit that I am biased in saying all of this as one of the map's creators, but quite simply the issues are nowhere near as drastic as you make them seem, and even Jaek agrees the map is far easier to hunt on than The Market.
     
    Posted Mar 12, 2021
  6. stop, plexville was perfect.
     
    Posted Mar 16, 2021
    230V, Im_Ken and Xukuwu like this.
  7. Just wanted to clear this up here, you can go about it in any of the ways you described here or post it on the Forums. Usually, if you want a map removed due to poor gameplay, that is mainly a GI thing that is decided upon. There are other reasons maps are removed on the builder side of things but this is one of the main ways you can go about it.
     
    Posted Mar 16, 2021
    Danese likes this.
  8. The map is fine, just needs a couple touch ups. The changes I see needing to happen are:

    A few attics removed

    The OP infestor stuff removed (explicitly the stuck spots, experienced people know what I mean).

    ~25% of Slums removed with replacements for the deadspace not consisting of structures. This does NOT mean removing slums from the edges, rather removing from the whole slums region methodically.

    Several redundant routes removed
     
    Posted Mar 17, 2021,
    Last edited Mar 17, 2021
  9. Hello! We hear your concerns and those issues are being addressed/fixed. Once the map is fixed and sent over, I'll make sure it gets pushed as soon as it can. Every map isn't going to be super polished and clean upon being released. The map's gameplay that is tested during Map Testing can widely change after it is pushed out live. I'm sure since a lot of Block Hunt GI members are behind this revamp and I don't see a problem with those changes hurting the map.

    The map will not be removed in the meantime.
    If you have any further questions, don't hesitate to ask (:
     
    Posted Mar 17, 2021
    FluteVegetables and Grant138 like this.
  10. Hi there mab8400!!!

    Besieged will not be removed for many reasons. Here are some of them!

    1. In our fabulous BlockHunt community, we like easy and quick wins. Even though this map seems hider biased, I can assure you that was the opposite intent. It was made by 4 hider mains.

    2. It takes a lot of skill to learn how to play on maps like these. The best hunters known as rpv, and PsychSkeleton can efficiently hunt and win this map in just minutes! If you have doubt in their legitimacy, always remember that it is very hard to get away with a hack like that (I don’t know what it’s called) as mineplex staff effectively and efficiently ban all cheaters!

    I hope you understand and accept this. Thank you for the suggestion mab8400!!!
     
    Posted Mar 18, 2021,
    Last edited by a Moderator Mar 18, 2021
    230V and Grant138 like this.
  11. Firstly I just want to say good work on the map itself, I definitely see a lot of work was put in so congratulations

    Your first point is very true. Most people thought Plexville was way too easy to hide on and eventually it became more balanced (not balanced but more balanced). The problem is that to this day there still are just way too many maps that are sided to the hiders- which makes sense since the majority of people want to hide and objectively do hide because the game is set up that way. I've already talked to a few hunter mains who already have thoroughly agreed that the map has way too many buildings and is too big. Even hiders have said it's a "broken" map.

    The type of comparison you are using was based on a different time with different maps. Things change with time. Back then, there were tons of players which made it much more difficult to get in a game with a competent hunter. Present day is essentially just hiding unless you get Museum, Thames, or Desert Village. Right now the maps have gotten so hider biased that Pirate Island seems much more balanced. Maps that used to be crazy hider-biased were nerfed, like Nakoji and Atlantis (even thought they are still hider maps). Mesa Village, Riverwood, and Desert Village were revamped to make them way more hider-based. This adds on to the fact that Pirate Island would seem even more balanced. Now let me admit that usually, I choose Pirate Island over most other maps. Simply due to the fact that all other maps are even further down the extreme of hiding maps. I have to choose the lesser of the extreme since that's the only real option. For what you said on the # of buildings, if we compare to something like Desert Village which has a lot of buildings, that isn't a good comparison because they are very small and short; only a few are "large" in which case they are ones that do not have much variation at all. If we're talking Cookie Town or Pirate Island, their buildings are based in the middle of the map. Mesa Village has its buildings and structures spread far apart. Besieged has its buildings both densely together in some areas and spread apart the whole map as well. That means we have to search farther for longer, and the clock is ticking. Not only that, but the buildings in Besieged have so many entrances and exits that the chances of tracking someone properly throughout the mess of blocks and 2x1 holes is slim. There is a single room of a building that has 6 exits/entrances on this map.

    I'm pretty sure afking in bh isn't sweating. If that's what you are implying....if you want to show me how easy it is to kill a sweat then please join the next hider lobby of chickens with hyper axe and smoke bombs and proceed to absolutely obliterate everyone. Tracking a player that smokes for 5 seconds and speed 3s like a quarter way across the map through several buildings is pretty difficult from my view; unless the hunter pursuing them is cheating. Simply 1v1ing anyone with hyper axe and smokebombs is already a chore in itself, especially when done alone. Again, afking in spots that inexperienced players don't know of is not sweating; it's just using knowledge to your advantage. The fact that you stated that "a lobby of sweats is easier to kill than a lobby of randoms" is absolute bogus...? That's like saying an experienced basketball player who is putting every ounce of effort into the game is easier to beat than a player who just picked up a basketball. Logic is entirely falsified there

    I'm glad to know that changes are being made; as there should be. Problem is that the map shouldn't have been thrown out like this in the first place. This is entirely my opinion and speculation; I believe the map was put this way purposely for a temporary "free wins" for hiders before it took lots of time to make changes and wait for the map to update after weeks or months.

    And that's something I know lol, but when someone makes a map there should be serious considerations on whether a map is going to be proper for both teams or just one. I can understand your concern for a map being hated on when it's first released but the reason I haven't made a post on any others is due to the fact that this one is so far sided. It was taken too far and now Besieged is chosen vastly more than any other map including The Market. You could say it's chosen because it's a new map, but I think we both know that there is an incentive to get wins without nearly as much effort. Now hunters will have to deal with it for weeks or longer. By the way, Jaek is basically a hider main now so i'm not confident that those comments are true at all.
     
    OP OP
    OP OP Posted Mar 19, 2021,
    Last edited Mar 19, 2021
  12. Hey mab8400!

    I see what points you're trying to make and I would say that I agree with your decision on this map being removed. I'm not much of a block hunt player, but the times I have decided to play, this map just seemed too broken. Like you, I have also talked about this map with other block hunt players and they seem to agree for the most part.

    Thank you for this forum post and have a great day!
     
    Posted Mar 19, 2021
    FluteVegetables likes this.
  13. Nah I've hunted on it and done fairly well. PB is like 12 kills and once you get basic map memory down and the afk spots down, its not too terribly difficult but still unbalanced. And yea I'm kinda a hider main atm because of school so I'd rather afk and work on schoolwork than hunt and watch my grades drop lol
     
    Posted Mar 19, 2021
  14. Good job jake!
     
    Posted Mar 19, 2021
    230V likes this.
  15. As you stated, things do change with time. This includes map balancing, since people learn more about maps over time. The effect you speak of definitely helps make Pirate Island seem more balanced over time, but back in 2017/2018, Pirate Island was essentially a free win. The ways people play on maps change over time, and Hunters got better at playing on Pirate. If it was just that Pirate seemed more balanced, it would still nearly be a free win. Instead, its balanced changed due to the change in playstyle, making it no longer a free win.

    I agree that there are too many available routes in some of the buildings. The changes I'm making remove some of these when there are too many in one area. I also agree that some buildings are too close together, especially in the slums area, which is being drastically cut down. With radar, it takes approximately 4 minutes to "see" every building. For other maps, this time is closer to 3 minutes. The changes being made will help this by quite a bit.

    At the moment for Besieged, this is completely true. Sweats are predictable. Once you know the spots that sweats tend to go to, you can wipe them in minutes. Randoms, however, don't go to spots you would want to check. This makes them harder to hunt than sweats. This will change over time, and will change once the changes are pushed, but for now holds true.

    Unfortunately, map testing does not always indicate balance anywhere near as well as live gameplay does. Joshuart also mentioned this, but once a map goes live, its gameplay can be different than testing implied. During testing this map was definitely hider biased, but not enough for it to have seemed like a problem. The amount of kills during testing made it seem like the map was balanced enough to be pushed. There was serious consideration about whether the map was going to be proper for both teams, and said consideration pointed to Besieged being fine. You have to keep in mind that the map testers are not like randoms, as they know about the game, but also not like sweats, because they aren't the regular playerbase of the game. This makes it hard to judge map balance during testing. What seems fine can end up being bad, and what seems wrong can end up fine.

    Every new map ends up getting chosen almost every game for a few weeks. It even happened with Plex despite the map being very balanced. Besieged being too hider-sided contributes, but is not the only reason.


    TLDR: Balance changes over time, and every map will be biased toward one team at first. A map's balance at testing is not a great indicator of its balance once live. Besieged is definitely too hider-sided at the moment, but things like this are going to happen. In Block Hunt, both the playerbase and the map matter a lot. Maps are going to get pushed, they are going to have problems due to the different playerbase than that at testing, and those problems are going to get fixed. If the map was not pushed, there would be no way to know what the problems are. Every map has needed changes since going live, and many maps have received major changes. It is impossible to get everything perfect, or even close to perfect, on a first try.

    I will hopefully be done with the changes soon, and will be giving them to Joshuart as soon as I am. However, even after the changes, this map will not be perfect. As with all maps, issues become apparent over time.
     
    Posted Mar 19, 2021
    FluteVegetables and 230V like this.
  16. Great map
     
    Posted Mar 21, 2021

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