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In Discussion (REVISION) Axeman and Archer - The OP kits

Discussion in 'Game Alterations' started by JMPhase, Dec 31, 2019.

  1. So I made a thread similar to this before, about Axeman and Archer... but I've changed my mind on a few things. I would have just edited the previous post but I feel like it wouldn't have gotten much new attention even with a bump. I also want to submit it as a game alteration idea this time. For those who don't know, Axeman and Archer in their current state are quite overpowered. This thread will be my attempt at nerfing the kits, trying to make them more or less on par with the other kits. Anyway, this is how I would nerf these kits if I were randomly put in charge of the next SG update.

    For Axeman, I have two suggested nerfs.

    The first nerf is a 1 second cooldown between throwing axes. This is to prevent axes from being spammed at a crazy fast rate. Right now when used correctly axe spamming can lower a ton of health almost instantaneously It's both unfair and frustrating to have happen.

    The second nerf is for axes to be consumed when they hit a player. I know it may seem like I’m going overboard but please hear me out. Even with a 1 second cooldown, axes would still be a pretty powerful and pretty spammable projectile. Because axes are a pretty common find, assuming that they've been looting chests and killing players, towards the end of the game they will quite often end up with a very large supply of axes. Making axes disappear once they have hit a player would naturally reduce this enormous supply and actually make them think about how they want to use their axes, rather than mindlessly throw them at every opportunity. The 15% chance to return a thrown Axe would stay even if it hits. Along with their +1 damage on Axes.

    I know that this new version of Axeman would severely weaken the kit. But a good way to look at this is to compare the new Axeman with the other kits. Rather than with the old Axeman. Of course it's going to seem weak. The old one is pretty broken after all.

    For Archer, my suggested nerf is to remove barrage. Barrage right now is just too hard to dodge when used by any half decent player. Combine this with a power 1 bow and that’s a weapon with insane damage output and accuracy. (Thanks to @Crash for helping me realise this) In my previous thread I said that barrage should be replaced with longshot, but honestly... I don't think that's necessary anymore. Without Barrage Archer would still be getting:
    - A free bow
    - Arrows every 20 seconds
    - Quickshot

    That's still quite a few perks. Combine this with the fact that GI is suggesting a nerf to the arrow supply in the loot pool (which would increase the value of archers arrows) it definitely is enough. Again, instead of comparing it to the previous version of the kit, try comparing it with the other kits.

    I know this thread is about Axeman and Archer but I just wanna mention this here too. This is almost more of a bug fix rather than a nerf.

    You should not be able to give a Skeleton a bow; to stop them from being able to shoot infinite arrows. I'm sure we can all relate to how annoyingly accurate Minecraft skeletons can be, so being shot down by them in SG can be very frustrating, especially since they will never run out.
    Posted Dec 31, 2019
    mab8400, Crash and SpitefulNick like this.
  2. Thank you for reading and please tell me your thoughts.
    OP OP
    OP OP Posted Dec 31, 2019
  3. I actually couldn't agree more with both of these nerfs. Axeman is a severely underrated kit that packs more punch than some people think. It's extremely powerful in chases and can basically be spammed to the point where long-distance PvP can occur better than Archer in some situations and can be really annoying to fight. I think a 1-2 second or possibly even something longer like 3 seconds would be good for limiting the amount this kit is spammed so it's used more in moderation and doesn't fully replace PvP. As for your second suggestion regarding this kit, I think it would actually be better to increase the chances you get the axe back, but I still agree with this. As someone who uses the kit every now and then, it's really hard to get to the point where you have multiple axes and can just rapid-fire spam them to the point where it's not even funny. Axes tend to be on the harder side when it comes to finding them and I haven't ever had more than three in my inventory. That being said, I could actually see this working better as 30-50% rather than just 15%.

    I agree with this suggestion too. In my opinion, Archer kit is simply a tool for users to make use of when PvP isn't necessarily their strong-suit, however it should not fully replace it which Archer does allow for in some ways. People can get really good with bows either way and including this extra shove in the kit seems unnecessary and makes any form of combat against it super hard. Like you said, any half-decent player could take away some decent health using Barrage and it just seems unfair to keep it in.

    I think I can actually agree with this one too. It seems like it goes against the main ideas of the kit and was something the developers didn't consider when making this. It bypasses the fact that you could have no arrows and allows for you to get long-distance combat in even if you don't have either a bow or arrows. Plus, if you have multiple bows and multiple skeletons it can get out of hand and is ridiculous overpowered. +1.

    Overall, I agree with your nerfs and with the modification I made to your post regarding Archer I think they would balance the kits out a lot better.
    Posted Dec 31, 2019
  4. I gotta disagree with that... the point of this change is to reduce the large amount of axes people end up with.

    You claim axes are rare and even said "I haven't ever had more than three in my inventory" and I really don't know how to respond to this... that's just such a bizarre thing to me. There definitely has to be some problem with the way you're looting if that is true.

    Axes usually are not any sort of problem to come by. They are quite a common find in chests and most players won't even take them out once they've gotten a sword, leaving them free for any Axeman to take. Often killing a player can also give you an axe or two as well since most people don't sort their inventories.

    I'm glad you support my other changes though.
    OP OP
    OP OP Posted Dec 31, 2019
    AtlantaTV likes this.
  5. Ah I definitely see what you're saying. Maybe I am just bad haha. In that case, I think 15% is probably good but I still think it could go a little higher.
    Posted Dec 31, 2019
    JMPhase likes this.
  6. Bump
    OP OP
    OP OP Posted Jan 1, 2020
  7. Hm, elegant fix on Axeman, I wasn't considering the return but that fits very well with it IMO

    Posted Jan 2, 2020
    JMPhase likes this.
  8. I think the 1 second cooldown is enough to balance axeman. The hotbar has 9 slots and they will likely carry sources of healing in there, preoccupying more space from the axes. Melee PvP is very fast-paced and 1 second is not a short amount of time in those situations. With the addition of players consuming axes, axeman is now underpowered. You will have to rearrange hotbar every several seconds, giving your opponents the opportunity to crit you out.

    Archer is also pretty annoying for me too. In order to get a projectile, a bow and arrows are necessary. A free projectile is already quite rewarding for a kit, considering how much of a thorn in the side they are for players to deal with if spammed. Hand down, barrage should be removed when they already have those 3 perks. Spraying barrage horizontally is basically a guaranteed hit, already causing enough problems for enemies.

    I would remedy the problem by fetching the amount of arrows the player had after elimination in their inventory. This will not be nearly as annoying since artificial intelligence will just shoot at a steady rate with no deception or any strategy whatsoever. Dodging their arrows should not be too difficult.


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    Posted Jan 2, 2020
  9. The way you've written this makes it sound like throwing Axes is literally the only thing you can do when playing Axeman. If you don't wanna keep rearranging your inventory every few seconds in fear of being critted out then you don't have to. There are ways to use Axeman aside from just sitting there and spamming them. You could chuck 2 or 3 to weaken an opponent and then go in for an easier fight. You could use them as a damaging rod, to initiate combos.

    Not to mention that rearranging your inventory wouldn't even be that bad, it will take like a second at most. Unless you haven't figured out you can shift click stuff to your hotbar, in which case, now you know.
    OP OP
    OP OP Posted Jan 2, 2020

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